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Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

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Old 11-15-05, 04:19 AM   #1
Kogswell
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Volumetrica: huh?!?!

My apologies for taking up bandwidth here. I should post this on some
framebuilding forum.

Hey, RS.

I was just browsing the old Masi catalogs and came upon this:

http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...rldwide/08.jpg

I knew a little about the V frames, but I'd never seen the lugs shown
that way and didn't understad the 'socket' aspect.

I'm wondering what you (and others) think of it. Seems like it might
add a lot of material. And the aesthetics never worked for me. But
I now see why the Raleigh Technium frames looked as they did.

And DW, if you see this message, pls bring it too Richard's attention
for me. Thanks.
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Old 11-15-05, 07:06 AM   #2
e-RICHIE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogswell
My apologies for taking up bandwidth here. I should post this on some
framebuilding forum.

Hey, RS.

I was just browsing the old Masi catalogs and came upon this:

http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...rldwide/08.jpg

I knew a little about the V frames, but I'd never seen the lugs shown
that way and didn't understad the 'socket' aspect.

I'm wondering what you (and others) think of it. Seems like it might
add a lot of material. And the aesthetics never worked for me. But
I now see why the Raleigh Technium frames looked as they did.

And DW, if you see this message, pls bring it too Richard's attention
for me. Thanks.


mon dieu*.
i am surprised this is new to you ( as i infer from this post).
this frame was introduced in prototype form in 79 (and painted
as a prestige for the milan show) but hit the market in 81. it
was a seminal frame in an era in which folks were starting to
think outside the ferrous box. what would you like to know
about it? i was on a three week trip to milan in 79 when i first
saw it at the vigorelli. the original frame(s) had the lip filed
off to suggest a lugless join, but was ultimately left on as a
design element.
put yourself in a 70s mindset and look it again; it was a
groundbreaking design. imo, the shortcoming was this: the
concept was excellent, but since the frame geometries were
also altered for this model alone, i think it fell short of expectations,
ride-wise.
e-RICHIE©™®

* french for my dieu

Last edited by e-RICHIE; 11-15-05 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 11-15-05, 09:14 AM   #3
bostontrevor
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Here's a Colnago I saw one day outside of work that also used internal lugs:
http://www.zweknu.org/blog/index.rhtml?s=p@633
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Old 11-15-05, 09:24 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by bostontrevor
Here's a Colnago I saw one day outside of work that also used internal lugs:
http://www.zweknu.org/blog/index.rhtml?s=p@633

that's an aluminum frame - glued!
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Old 11-15-05, 09:49 AM   #5
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Hey, brass, glue, it's all just a bonding agent. Whether held in place with solder or glue, the joint is still conceptually the same.

As Matthew said, "I now see why the Raleigh Technium frames looked as they did."
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Old 11-15-05, 10:10 AM   #6
e-RICHIE
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Hey, brass, glue, it's all just a bonding agent. Whether held in place with solder or glue, the joint is still conceptually the same.

As Matthew said, "I now see why the Raleigh Technium frames looked as they did."

i think that the stresses borne out on a nonferrous joint
are different than those on steel; as such, the makeup
of the bonding agent as well as the interference fits between
the two materials cannot be compared.
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Old 11-15-05, 06:45 PM   #7
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i am surprised this is new to you ( as i infer
from this post).


Like I said, I'd seen them and knew that they used
oversized tubes and that the lip was present. But
I'd never pondered the use of the lip and I didn't
know about the sockets. Am I repeating myself?

this frame was introduced in prototype form in
79 (and painted as a prestige for the milan
show) but hit the market in 81. it was a
seminal frame in an era in which folks were
starting to think outside the ferrous box.


It is ferrous, right?

what would you like to know about it? i was on
a three week trip to milan in 79 when i first
saw it at the vigorelli. the original frame(s)
had the lip filed off to suggest a lugless
join, but was ultimately left on as a design
element.


Just looking for pros and cons.

put yourself in a 70s mindset and look it
again; it was a groundbreaking design.


The funny thing is that when I put myself in the
70s mindset, it looks odd. My 00s mindset finds
them way more interesting. I guess that's what
you get for being ahead of your time.

imo, the shortcoming was this: the concept was
excellent, but since the frame geometries were
also altered for this model alone, i think it
fell short of expectations, ride-wise.


They do seem like they would not allow for
'angle modification' as easily as conventional
lugs.

Thanks, RS. I knew you knew.
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Old 11-15-05, 07:15 PM   #8
e-RICHIE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogswell
i am surprised this is new to you ( as i infer
from this post).


Like I said, I'd seen them and knew that they used
oversized tubes and that the lip was present. But
I'd never pondered the use of the lip and I didn't
know about the sockets. Am I repeating myself?

this frame was introduced in prototype form in
79 (and painted as a prestige for the milan
show) but hit the market in 81. it was a
seminal frame in an era in which folks were
starting to think outside the ferrous box.


It is ferrous, right?

what would you like to know about it? i was on
a three week trip to milan in 79 when i first
saw it at the vigorelli. the original frame(s)
had the lip filed off to suggest a lugless
join, but was ultimately left on as a design
element.


Just looking for pros and cons.

put yourself in a 70s mindset and look it
again; it was a groundbreaking design.


The funny thing is that when I put myself in the
70s mindset, it looks odd. My 00s mindset finds
them way more interesting. I guess that's what
you get for being ahead of your time.

imo, the shortcoming was this: the concept was
excellent, but since the frame geometries were
also altered for this model alone, i think it
fell short of expectations, ride-wise.


They do seem like they would not allow for
'angle modification' as easily as conventional
lugs.

Thanks, RS. I knew you knew.

it is steel. the upshot, in short, is/was that it employed straight guage,
thin-walled steel. initially, it was from excell in france. the "innovative"
(for the time) internal joints were lightly silver brazed. theoretically,
it would be a way to make lighter frames without burning through them.
the straight cuts were a way that mitres, good or bad, would not really
affect the intersection; you really can't screw up a 90 degree cut. as with
any production shop, i would be surprised if masi did not have the parts
cast in various angles to avoid any snags.
e-RICHIE©™®
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Old 11-16-05, 04:00 AM   #9
Kogswell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
it is steel. the upshot, in short, is/was that it employed straight guage,
thin-walled steel. initially, it was from excell in france. the "innovative"
(for the time) internal joints were lightly silver brazed. theoretically,
it would be a way to make lighter frames without burning through them.
the straight cuts were a way that mitres, good or bad, would not really
affect the intersection; you really can't screw up a 90 degree cut. as with
any production shop, i would be surprised if masi did not have the parts
cast in various angles to avoid any snags.
e-RICHIE©™®
Again, thanks for the info.

It all seems to work on paper. In a production setting
you'd save a bit of time on mitering, and alignment might
be a tiny bit easier/better.

I also find it interesting that the tubes were not HT.
These days thin-wall usually means HT.
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Old 11-16-05, 06:06 AM   #10
e-RICHIE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogswell
Again, thanks for the info.

It all seems to work on paper. In a production setting
you'd save a bit of time on mitering, and alignment might
be a tiny bit easier/better.

I also find it interesting that the tubes were not HT.
These days thin-wall usually means HT.
they were HT!
e-RICHIE©™®
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Old 11-16-05, 06:51 PM   #11
Kogswell
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they were HT!
e-RICHIE©™®
hmmmm...

I thought so too.

But the link above says 'no'.
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Old 11-16-05, 06:55 PM   #12
e-RICHIE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogswell
hmmmm...

I thought so too.

But the link above says 'no'.
which link/page?


ps
edit: i take that back.
that text is from the puff piece that the u.s. name owners produced.
by "that" time, they were describing "their" 3v. imo, by the time the
italian concept frame morphed into an american-version-made-under-license,
it was different animal altogether.

crowd: "tuck in your claws, e-RICHIE".
me: "meow".
e-RICHIE©™®

Last edited by e-RICHIE; 11-16-05 at 07:01 PM.
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