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  1. #1
    vegan straightedge
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    BB / Crank questions

    so i'm building up a new bike this weekend from a kid's frame in dc (early 70's peugot track frame, french threaded) and it comes with a campy headset and a phil BB.

    he currently has sugino RD's on the bike.

    for his new bike he is building, he got a sugi 75 BB (english threaded) and was told that his RD's would not fit on it and he needed to have a 103 spindle length.


    now here is my problem - i have Sugino 75 cranks. i was assuming that since his sugi cranks (the rd's) fit on his BB, mine should fit fine. now i am sorta bummin out thinking '****, these sugi 75s aren't gonna fit right on this phil bb' (if the rd's dont fit on a sugi 75 bb, then a sugi 75 crankset (which def. fits on a sugi 75 bb) won't fit the bb that his rd's (which don't fit on the sugi 75bb) fit on).

    if my crankset won't fit on his bb, i'll be super bummed b/c i won't have time to order a correct bb from my shop before i go up to build this bike (after that i'm going to philly and NYC to ride around and do the 12 monkeys alleycat)

    now, here is where i ask you, smarter BFFG folks, to calm me down.
    i'm assuming his phil bb is 103 (hopefully it's not and it's more like 109)

    could i put the sugi 75 cranks on a bb with a 103 spindle length, and just deal with the ****ty chainline until i can get back home and order a new BB?

    yikes!

  2. #2
    meet the mets chicagoamdream's Avatar
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    Phil Wood bbs are adjustable and have some lateral wiggle room with the spindle. I bet you can get pretty close to a decent chainline.

  3. #3
    vegan straightedge
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    i've got like 2.5 mm on each side right? i hear you need to be at like 108/109mm for a decent chainline with sugi 75 cranks.

  4. #4
    meet the mets chicagoamdream's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess you're right. PW's site says 5mm of adjustment on the spindles. I'm running the 75s with a 107 spindle right now (don't ask) and it's pretty much fine, but I guess you're still going to be pretty off.

    Sucks. Can you just get a cheapo 108 or 110 cartridge bb for the meantime?

  5. #5
    vegan straightedge
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    not in like 4 days. especially french threaded.

  6. #6
    vegan straightedge
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    hmm.

  7. #7
    roll'em high shants's Avatar
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    i've said this before and will say it again. if it has phil cups in it right now, you can buy a cheap ass shimano un53or 73, in 107mm length (or 110, they both have the same driveside), get a vice and rip off the cups so that it's just the cartridge.. then, take that cart and use it with the phil wood rings. it'll work. since you have phil wood cups, just move it 1mm toward the driveside and you have yourself a bottom bracket that'll give you a perfect chainline. the un-73 is a very decent bottom bracket for the money. once it's nasty, you can trash it and not care.

  8. #8
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    why don't you go measure the phil spindle first before panicking?
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  9. #9
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shants
    i've said this before and will say it again. if it has phil cups in it right now, you can buy a cheap ass shimano un53or 73, in 107mm length (or 110, they both have the same driveside), get a vice and rip off the cups so that it's just the cartridge.. then, take that cart and use it with the phil wood rings. it'll work. since you have phil wood cups, just move it 1mm toward the driveside and you have yourself a bottom bracket that'll give you a perfect chainline. the un-73 is a very decent bottom bracket for the money. once it's nasty, you can trash it and not care.
    AFAIK, you're referring to a UN-72 or UN-52 BB which are no longer manufactured
    the right side "cups" on a UN-73 or UN-53 are part of the the cartridge assembly...

    see zinn, scroll down to #3
    http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7239.0.html
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  10. #10
    roll'em high shants's Avatar
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    hmm, i'll have to check and see about this. you may very well be correct, though. maybe it was a un-72 that i used.

  11. #11
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    when have i ever been wrong?

    though, your technique does indeed work with 52's and 72's
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  12. #12
    roll'em high shants's Avatar
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    haha, it's definitely a good technique. hell, i think that you use use the technique with the dura-ace 7600-series square taper bracket. i think it has cups that you can remove.

  13. #13
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shants
    haha, it's definitely a good technique. hell, i'm pretty sure that you use use the technique with the dura-ace 7600-series square taper bracket. i think it has cups that you can remove.
    yeah probably. the 7600 BBs are of the same vintage as the 52's and 72's
    and aren't they also out of production and hard to get on this continent?
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  14. #14
    vegan straightedge
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    i couldn't measure it because the bike is in DC and i'm in North Carolina.

    but anyways, the guy that had the bike before my friend said he was running sugino 75s so all is good i guess.

  15. #15
    don't pedal backwards... MacG's Avatar
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    Not to hijack the thread, but I have a similar question.

    I have a set of Sugino RD's in the mail right now ($54 at aebike right now if you need some) and am trying to learn about bottom bracket spindle lengths and stuff. I just bought my first set of "real" wheels, so I'm running a Formula flip flop hub in the rear with Dura Ace cog and lockring.

    Up front, I have a cheap road double that has been modified and hacksawed to turn it into a single using the inner ring position. The frame is an early 1980s Raleigh 10 (I think) speed road bike with the 126 dropouts respaced to 120 by bending the stays in a controlled manner. I'm using the BB that came with the frame, after cleaning and regreasing it. This actually gives me a very acceptable chainline with the inner ring position of the modified road double, but I'm guessing this won't be right with the RDs.

    It's my understanding that Formula hubs use a 44mm chainline as measured from the center of the frame/hub. Measurements with a caliper supports this in my case. What do I need to know about the frame to get the right bottom bracket for this setup? I'm sure it's a pretty common configuration for a conversion, but I keep finding conflicting reports on BB length. I'd like to put a ~$20 cartridge BB in to get away from the cupped BB, but I don't want to get the wrong BB if I can help it.

    Anyone have advice or can tell me what to measure and how to find out what will give a proper chainline?
    from Minneapolis, with bike love

  16. #16
    roll'em high shants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxtefer
    yeah probably. the 7600 BBs are of the same vintage as the 52's and 72's
    and aren't they also out of production and hard to get on this continent?
    yeah, of course. but they can be fairly easily purchased from the UK.

  17. #17
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG
    Not to hijack the thread, but I have a similar question.

    I have a set of Sugino RD's in the mail right now ($54 at aebike right now if you need some) and am trying to learn about bottom bracket spindle lengths and stuff. I just bought my first set of "real" wheels, so I'm running a Formula flip flop hub in the rear with Dura Ace cog and lockring.

    Up front, I have a cheap road double that has been modified and hacksawed to turn it into a single using the inner ring position. The frame is an early 1980s Raleigh 10 (I think) speed road bike with the 126 dropouts respaced to 120 by bending the stays in a controlled manner. I'm using the BB that came with the frame, after cleaning and regreasing it. This actually gives me a very acceptable chainline with the inner ring position of the modified road double, but I'm guessing this won't be right with the RDs.

    It's my understanding that Formula hubs use a 44mm chainline as measured from the center of the frame/hub. Measurements with a caliper supports this in my case. What do I need to know about the frame to get the right bottom bracket for this setup? I'm sure it's a pretty common configuration for a conversion, but I keep finding conflicting reports on BB length. I'd like to put a ~$20 cartridge BB in to get away from the cupped BB, but I don't want to get the wrong BB if I can help it.

    Anyone have advice or can tell me what to measure and how to find out what will give a proper chainline?
    way to hijack the thread..

    rear chainline is dependent on your hub+cog choice. Formula hubs are designed around a 42mm chainline, but cogs are of different widths etcetcetc leading to variances in chainline....
    anyway, RD's use a 103mm BB for a 42mm chainline or a 107/110mm for a 44mm chainline.

    just get yourself a 107mm UN 53/73 (english threaded)
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  18. #18
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shants
    yeah, of course. but they can be fairly easily purchased from the UK.
    true, but the kid has 4 days to get a BB. so...

    just curious, has anyone tried using phil mounting rings with a miche BB? something tells me this wouldn't work. (yes, I know the miche BB is ISO)
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  19. #19
    don't pedal backwards... MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxtefer
    way to hijack the thread..

    rear chainline is dependent on your hub+cog choice. Formula hubs are designed around a 42mm chainline, but cogs are of different widths etcetcetc leading to variances in chainline....
    anyway, RD's use a 103mm BB for a 42mm chainline or a 107/110mm for a 44mm chainline.

    just get yourself a 107mm UN 53/73 (english threaded)
    Thanks! That should get me going. Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
    from Minneapolis, with bike love

  20. #20
    jack of one or two trades Aeroplane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxtefer
    AFAIK, you're referring to a UN-72 or UN-52 BB which are no longer manufactured
    the right side "cups" on a UN-73 or UN-53 are part of the the cartridge assembly...
    Holy crap, you gave me a scare there. I thought shimano was abondoning the square-taper cartridge BB.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Irwin Goldstein
    Men should never ride bicycles. Riding should be banned and outlawed. It is
    the most irrational form of exercise I could ever bring to discussion.

  21. #21
    Senior Member sers's Avatar
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    I use a UN-73 with my 75's on my Mark V. The chainline is pretty much dead on. I'd probably go with a phil wood if I was to upgrade it at any point, as it's adjustable and sealed. There was a considerable amount of gunky water on the last bb.

    Also - the UN-73's drive side cup is integrated into the cartridge. The UN-72 or equivalent Tange has a removable drive side cup, according to sheldon

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