evanyc

thank you. i hate scrolling

ch0mb0

mihlbach

Yeah I created that thread, calling these pedals a rip off and a scam so you would buy this auction...thats ********. Hey guys, don't mention any products or auctions or talk about anything related to bikes or parts...its shilling and thats evil. The whole CL/ebay thread..thats one big long evil shill thread..don't get suckered into buying anything you see on there.

mattface 

I didn't mean to acuse you of shilling. In fact I tried hard to phrase it in such a way so as NOT to make it accusatory. My point was if you wanted to shill this would be a clever way to do it. Look how the thread turned out. everybody said no those look like the Cs to me. In the meantime they went and looked at a current auction, and some of them might have been tempted to buy the pedals that are currently for sale, and are not currently a ripoff according to group consensus. whoever is selling those just got a lot more eyes looking at their auction wether that was the intention or not. The red flag for me is that you linked to a current auction for similar pedals. If you were really worried about wether you got ripped of, why not link to the closed auction for your pedals. I'm not accusing you of being a shill, but if you were you'd be a good one.

Sorry, but all this boo**** has a lot of us paranoid. Good luck to any new users with common questions for the next few days

queerpunk

woah there. put your guns down. mattface said "I'm not saying it IS, but shilling could also be something like this thread" (emphasis mine). and then gave perfectly good reasons why they're comparable, but without accusing you or even asserting that he thinks you were shilling.

mihlbach

Because my auction is no longer available..its was months ago...I don't even remember who I bought it from. At any rate, to get back to the point of shilling...99.99% of all questions, particularly from newbies, are going to look like shills..."what do you think of this", or "should I buy that", but that vast majority of them are undoubtedly sincere, though many here are quick to make accusations.

Regarding the supposed Bikes Direct shilling fiasco...I sincerely doubt any of it is real shilling. Those bikes are cheap and attaractive to someone without a lot of experience..hence it fairly obvious that we are always going to get questions from unfamilair people about them. And given the rude and snobbish treatment that a lot of newbies get by some of the people on this forum, its not surprising that we never hear from some again. At any rate, if you'll note how saturated this formum is with BD, it has absolutely no need for real shillsters, so I think its really a mute point.

mihlbach

Yes, but all of the shill accusers need to understand that its very offensive for anyone to even remotely suggest that one is a shillster, its basically the same as being called a liar or a scam artist. All I'm interested in is discussing the merits of products, and making sure that my own purchasing decisions are wise choices. I find it insulting that this would even be equated with shillism and I'm not even a newbie..I can put up with some abuse. But, imagine how a newie must feel, after asking about some product, immediately being accused of shilling...its downright insulting.

mattface 

That was sort of my point too. Acusing people of shilling either alienates legitimate users or if it actually is a shill thread it generates controversy which creates a lot more buzz than just answering the question or ignoring it and moving on.

With the thread that started all this for me the question was answered within an hour of the original post. If it had stopped there the original poster would have been satisfied,and the thread would have sunk into obscurity. Instead accusations were made, and the damn thing is still alive a day and a half after it's useful purpose had been fulfilled. This benefits no one except possibly BD since people are still talking about them.

queerpunk

well, it's annoying to be accused of being a shill accuser. i have done no such thing, so just calm down, and maybe go back to the initial post and read what mattface wrote:

think it is really obnoxious and counter productive to accuse people of trolling or shilling in the forum.

mihlbach

Sorry...didn't mean you specifically. I was just trying to make a general point that making such accusations are very serious, and if you (meaning anyone) want to accuse someone of shilling you better have bulletproff evidence..otherwise your not only offending someone, but you potentially discrediting everything that person has ever posted on BF. Theres been a lot of shill accusing going on lately..and its hard to keep track of whos makeing the accusations...I wasn't refering specifically to you or mattface..just making a point that even a remote suggestion of being accused of shilling can have seriously damaging consequences regarding someones credibility and honesty..and such accusations should not be tossed around lightly.

redfooj

which soooo does not happen

sincitycycler
53-11 (and variants)

etc

mihlbach

Shilling is virtually impossible to prove.
Trollism is perhaps easier..but most of the apparent trolling is not blatent triolling..its somewhere in the fuzzy zone between delibarate and blatant trolling and just happening to annoy some folks.

pathdoc

"such accusations should not be tossed around lightly"

I couldn't agree more.

mattface 

Shut up shill!

alanbikehouston

The best descriptions of "trolling" and "shilling" I've come across.

Over the past three years, I've seen the number of "trolls" at BikeForums drop steadily. But, the "shills" are relentless (usually providing a "helpful" line to a "current bargain" sold by BikesDirect, or its owner, Cycle Spectrum, or at one of the five or six alias names BD/CS uses on E-Bay to create the illusion that there is more than one dealer for their "house brands"...Windsor, Mercier, Motobecane, etc.).

The BC/CS brands represent less than one or two percent of the bikes that are owned by Bike Forums members. But, those brands account for the great majority of posts that loudly announce a "big sale" and a "real bargain" and then provide a direct link to one of the BD/CS websites.

mihlbach

How did you derive that estimate? Regardless, it doesn't matter what kinds of bikes we own. Its what kind of bikes newbs are considering buying. If you really think such postser are shillsters (I don't) and if you don't like BD (the bikes are probably OK for the price, but I don't like their sales tactics), rather than making accusations, write well thought out polite responses that are effective at turning people off of BD. Making unsupported accusations of shilling will just make you (read: anyone) look paranoid, elitist and stupid. Argue for an alternative approach, such as going the 80s conversion route from someone who deserves the business, like grinderbikes for instance.

I've been wanting to buy a BD bike, for the sake of comparing it to my $225 80s conversion, and post updates over the long term, to decide which was ultimately the better purchase. Thats the smart way to fight BD..not endless whining about trolls and shills.

dobber

It was either b.o.r.i.n.g or an Art Student comment.

whoosh!

oh damn, he's pullin' out the b.s.g. references.


this ****'s serious.

alanbikehouston

Recently, on the "front page" of the "Road Bikes" section of Bike Forums, there were four different threads promoting Motobecane bikes sold by BikesDirect and its affiliates. The owner of BikesDirect is also the owner of the Motobecane brand in the USA.

These were the ONLY threads on the front page of "Road Bikes" that day designed to sell and promote just a single brand of bikes, sold by a single supplier. One of those threads invited every owner of a Motobecane bike to post as to which model he owned. Lots of owners of the French made Motobecane's of the 1970's. But, less than twenty different members posted to say they own a BikesDirect Motobecane. Twenty guys, out of the thousands of members of Bike Forums. Far less than 1% of Forum members. Yet, those twenty guys were providing 100% of the threads directed at selling one brand of bikes and promoting just one bike retailer.

Schwinn, and other bike companies, have set up their own bike forums as a means to promote their brand. BikesDirect ought to set up its own forum, and stop using THIS forum as a "free" means to advertise their products.

bbattle

"10 microns and closing."

MasterHalco

I know you aren't a cylon. I haven't seen you at any of the meetings.

turbominnow

Can't wait 'till October

brokenrobot

Now who's trolling, troll?

MasterHalco

sohi

you would think that since the introduction of the euro schilling shouldnt be such a hot topic
anymore.