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Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

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Old 08-11-06, 10:55 PM   #1
musicman716
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Possible chain line issue?

Ok so I just finished building up my first track bike and I think my chain line might be off, but I'm not sure. It's a pake frame, with a shimano BB, Sugino crank, Formula track hub, and a dura-ace 16t cog and lockring. I need to measure again to be sure, but it seems like it may be off 5mm or so, and the 1/8" chain is making some noise. It could be just because the chain is new but what do you guys think? And consequently if my chain line is off, how can I adjust it?
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Old 08-11-06, 11:25 PM   #2
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peek at it, does it look off?
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Old 08-11-06, 11:30 PM   #3
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Hang the bike by the front wheel. Take of the rear wheel. Put it back on but don't run the chain around the cog. let the chain hang loose from the chainring and see where it falls. It should line up with the cog.
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Old 08-12-06, 12:52 AM   #4
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What length bb and which sugino cranks?
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Old 08-12-06, 07:13 AM   #5
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What length bb and which sugino cranks?
It's a 68mm BB shell, with sugino messenger 44t cranks. My LBS helped me pick out the frame, BB, Crank, and Cog. Also, i used a laser and found the offset to be approx 4.5 mm. Is this enough to worry about?
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Old 08-12-06, 07:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman716
It's a 68mm BB shell, with sugino messenger 44t cranks. My LBS helped me pick out the frame, BB, Crank, and Cog. Also, i used a laser and found the offset to be approx 4.5 mm. Is this enough to worry about?
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Old 08-12-06, 07:18 AM   #7
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he means, what length BB Spindle, not the frame width.
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Old 08-12-06, 07:44 AM   #8
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How doesn't one notice 4,5mm before riding it? I'd not be satisfied with anything above 1mm.
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Old 08-12-06, 10:15 AM   #9
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beat up the guy at the shop
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Old 08-12-06, 10:54 AM   #10
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Just get a shorter bb. The sugino 75s need a 109mm spindle, and the RDs need a 103. I'm not sure which the messengers need.

Edit: The Messengers are an upgraded RD, so they need a 103 mm bb. Might as well get the Sugino Bottom Bracket.
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Old 08-12-06, 11:56 AM   #11
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I'm having the same problem with my current build. I got an older, unused Dura-Ace BB that had a 103mm spindle and am trying to use it with the Sugino Messenger (RD's with an 1/8" specific chainring) and my chainline is also off by about 4.5mm.

At first I thought that the spindle length must have been wrong, but it's definitely a 103.

I don't know what to do.
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Old 08-12-06, 12:18 PM   #12
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"Yet another source claimed that the squares of Campa, Mavic and
Stronglight (ISO) are smaller than Shimano and Suntour (JIS) with the
result that JIS cranks will move about 4.5 mm further in.

This may conflict with the end of the square and result in a loose fit
or braking stress. for ISO cranks on JIS squares there's less contact
area between crank and spindle, since the crank does not slip perfectly
on the spindle. The result again is a higher risk of braking the crank.

But assuming those 4.5 mm and 2 deg, ISO is about 0.3 mm smaller than
JIS (2 * sin 2 * 4.5 = 0.3)?
ISO cranks (Campagnolo, Stronglight, others) won't go as far onto J.I.S. spindles as they ideally should.

J.I.S. cranks (most Japanese models) may bottom out if installed on ISO spindles."

(From Sheldon Brown's Site)

I think I may have just answered your question. JIS standardized parts (Shimano) have a bigger taper on their spindles. According to Toe-Clip, Sugino RD's are built to ISO size.

I am so sick of JIS vs. ISO. To solve the problem, both you and I will have to buy the matching Sugino BB.

Bummer.
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Old 08-12-06, 12:56 PM   #13
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suginos are JIS
*OLD* sugino's were ISO
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Old 08-12-06, 01:54 PM   #14
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Its really strange that a company like sugino would use ISO instead of JIS. If anything i would expect shimano to use ISO and sugino to use JIS. (BTW, i'm not disagreeing with you, just stating my confusion) On the plus side, the sugino bb is pretty cheap and looks pretty nice.
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Old 08-12-06, 02:56 PM   #15
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thanks for the help everyone. I'm going to bring my BB and Crank back to my LBS and discuss the ISO vs. JIS issue, and probably return my BB and buy the segino BB. Hopefully they will allow me to return it since they are the ones who told me that crank and BB would work together....
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Old 08-12-06, 04:40 PM   #16
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I think I figured it out! I double checked my spindle length and it turns out it was 107mm when it should have been 103mm. So I thought that was all, but then i realized if my spindle is 4mm shorter, that is actually only a difference of 2mm on each side, which would still leave me 2mm offset. Soooo I think that I may ALSO have a ISO vs. JIS issue, because it looks like the crank is not going far enough down on the spindle. I'm gonna go back to the LBS later this week and discuss both issues with them. Thanks again for all the help everyone!
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Old 08-12-06, 04:44 PM   #17
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lol. its really convenient sometimes to have a father who has crazy obscure motorcyle and metalworking tools.
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Old 08-13-06, 01:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman716
I think I figured it out! I double checked my spindle length and it turns out it was 107mm when it should have been 103mm. So I thought that was all, but then i realized if my spindle is 4mm shorter, that is actually only a difference of 2mm on each side, which would still leave me 2mm offset. Soooo I think that I may ALSO have a ISO vs. JIS issue, because it looks like the crank is not going far enough down on the spindle. I'm gonna go back to the LBS later this week and discuss both issues with them. Thanks again for all the help everyone!
Thing is, if you rode the crank on the wrong (JIS) spindle for a while, it may be a bad idea to put it on an ISO spindle now it has deformed inside... Ask Sheldon or God, whichever you got better connections to.
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Old 08-13-06, 11:11 AM   #19
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Hang the bike by the front wheel. Take of the rear wheel. Put it back on but don't run the chain around the cog. let the chain hang loose from the chainring and see where it falls. It should line up with the cog.
neat idea, need to try that next time.
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Old 08-13-06, 11:28 AM   #20
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Thing is, if you rode the crank on the wrong (JIS) spindle for a while, it may be a bad idea to put it on an ISO spindle now it has deformed inside... Ask Sheldon or God, whichever you got better connections to.
I never really rode it, i just rode it in front of my house for 2 minutes, and not very hard at all.
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