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  1. #1
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    NJS dropout problems

    NJS frame needs rear axle that fits. It's 9mm Flattened and needs spacing to 113mm.

    Or so I think it's 9mm flat...it's small. And now I"m worried about strength of my hub since I nearly cut it in half trying to file it flat.

  2. #2
    :jarckass: deathhare's Avatar
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    where do u live?

  3. #3
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    Axles are 8mm, and you also need a 110mm hub (113 is for chain tensioners). I know that Dura-Ace and Gran Compe hubs have such spacing. There's maybe more.

  4. #4
    crotchety young dude el twe's Avatar
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    Phil Wood.
    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacKid View Post
    I explained that he could never pay me enough cash for the amount of work I had put into that bike and the only way to compensate me for it was to ride the hell out of it.
    IRO Angus Casati Gold Line

  5. #5
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    There have been numerous threads on this issue.

    The two axle standards are:

    (a) 120 mm rear, 10 mm round axle, and 100 mm front, 9 mm round axle
    (b) 110 mm rear, 10 mm round axle with two flats to fit a 9 mm stay end slot, and 100 mm front, 9 mm round axle with two flats again

    There are occasionally narrower spacings, and also some builders used the 110 mm rear with the round 9 mm front axle. In either case, though the length may be different, the threading is the same. The cones, locknuts, and lockwashers will thread on either front axle or either rear axle, but the cones on some hubs (such as Dura Ace 7600) are longer by 5 mm on each side to create the 120 mm spacing.

    You can file down the axles to create the flats or you can file out the stay ends so they accommodate 10 mm round axles. I prefer the latter since otherwise you'll always be looking for the flatted axles and a 120-spaced frame tends to have more resale value. How to do this has been discussed repeatedly in other threads on this forum.

    You can also hunt for original 110 mm flattened axles -- there are a very few around. If you buy Phil Wood hubs (or already own them), PW will supply axles designed for the spacing.

    The reason for the flats was that they kept the axle assembly from rotating when the track nuts were tightened. The hubs don't slip as much and they don't try to rotate while tightened and loosen up the cones. However, the current round-axle standard works fine.

  6. #6
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    Spacing isn't the problem. I just need flat 9mm axles. Front/Back dropouts are identicle. And I'm starting to this this hub I filed is 120 instead of 110.

  7. #7
    :jarckass: deathhare's Avatar
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    What kind of hub is it?
    If you think its 120mm then how can the spacing be no problem?
    Cause you said the drops needed 9mm.

  8. #8
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    They are suzue Promax SB hubs but I never knew the spacing when I bought the rear. All four spacers are out though and it looks pretty accurate.

  9. #9
    lifewaster. helloamerican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadashi View Post
    Axles are 8mm, and you also need a 110mm hub (113 is for chain tensioners). I know that Dura-Ace and Gran Compe hubs have such spacing. There's maybe more.
    you don't NEED a 110 hub some bikes have 110, dura-ace quit making those hubs they're expensive and hard to find gran compe still makes them they're nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nad Kel View Post
    Spacing isn't the problem. I just need flat 9mm axles. Front/Back dropouts are identicle. And I'm starting to this this hub I filed is 120 instead of 110.
    did i read this right, you're filing the hub? huh?

    and the front/back wouldnt be identical unless your rear forks are messed- front is always thinner.

  10. #10
    :jarckass: deathhare's Avatar
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    but those dia compes are only in japan

  11. #11
    a drinking idea abeabe's Avatar
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    you can order them, with shipping they are still probably cheaper than phil woods.

    as far as fitting into the dropouts you need to have flats filed in. It isnt a big deal I took my bike to kalavinka and tanabe san himself assured me they would not be any weaker.

  12. #12
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    I still don't quite get what's happening on this bike. You have a 120 mm spaced rear axle and a 110+3 mm stay-ends with 9 mm slots, correct? As I said before, working with the existing hubs, you can (a) file the hub axles, (b) file the stay end slot, or (c) replace just the axle in the hub. Option (c) is easiest but option (b) solves the problem for all time. Option (a) frankly just messes up the chrome axle and means you have to do it every time you want a different hub on the bike.

    To clarify, it is possible to have 9 mm slots with 110 mm spacing in the rear and either 8 or 9 mm slots on the fork ends -- bikes that were built during the transitional period from 110 to 120 mm seemed to go to the 9 mm round axle in the front before they went to the 10 mm round axle in the rear. You end up with a 9 mm slot in the rear with 110 spacing and a standard modern 9 mm axle slot in the front.

    There's no need to get Phils unless you want to buy some Phils, and there's no need to go buy some DiaCompes from Japan. If you want to leave the frame alone, I'd just get a Bicycle Research $15 replacement axle and file the replacement. It's a stainless axle so it won't corrode like the original axle in the hub and then you can restore the original axle if at some point you want to sell the wheels. The cheapest and most permanent solution is still to file out the frame ends and spread the stay ends to 120 mm. You'll be much happier.

  13. #13
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    Well the only axle that fits in the rear is a Front 9mm flattened.

    And how would you ever file trackouts? I don't have a machine shop anywhere near.

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    Yeah, 110mm spacing but too large axles. Every single track thub I see has a REAR 10mm axle, which is way too big even if it's squared off.

  15. #15
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nad Kel View Post
    Well the only axle that fits in the rear is a Front 9mm flattened.

    And how would you ever file trackouts? I don't have a machine shop anywhere near.
    buy a file?
    {o,o**
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    O RLY?

  16. #16
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    Yeah, well I already filed the hub down and it fits. --Just worry about how much strength I took away.

  17. #17
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    then you should have just filed the track ends.
    {o,o**
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  18. #18
    :jarckass: deathhare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nad Kel View Post
    Yeah, well I already filed the hub down and it fits. --Just worry about how much strength I took away.
    wait, so its all done and it fits?

    pics?

  19. #19
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    Go to a good hardware store or industrial supply and buy what's called a 10 or 12 inch drawfile. This is a file designed to take off a lot of metal and make a nice smooth job of it. It doesn't have cuts on the edges so it doesn't cut anything except the flat surfaces of the dropout. Simply put your bike in a stand and run the file across both dropouts. Work on filing one, using the other dropout to keep your file straight and even. Only file the top or the bottom on both dropouts; otherwise you end up with a pair of slots that aren't aligned horizontally on the bike. To touch up the bottom of the slot, a simple round chainsaw file works wonders. No need to repaint -- I'd actually suggest you use the file delicately to take off paint where the hubs clamp anyway to improve their performance and reduce the need for over-tightening track nuts. This takes less than 20 minutes for both fork and stay ends; I usually do it in ten minutes these days. Most of the keirin framebuilders have a custom jig that they mount on the fork or stay end and use to mill out the slot, but the file gives the same result if you're just neat about it. You may think there's a lot of metal to take off, but you only have to take a tad less than 2 millimeters off one side of the track end.

    If you want to respace your frame to 120 mm, simply grab one chainstay in each hand, push on one and pull on the other. Literally, don't overdo it because you can spread them too much. Just do a few millimeters at a time until you are at 120 mm. If you go over a bit, just push them together. At times I've used a scissors car jack from my Honda to spread ends on a very beefy sprint bike, but you can really do it just with your arm power. Steel frames get re-adjusted in this dimension by the builder after it's assembled anyway, so you aren't doing anything the frame isn't familiar with. This is why I prefer to modify the frame rather than the hubs. (You can't adjust spacing reliably on aluminum or carbon frames, but on steel frames it's easy and completely non-harmful to the bike.)

  20. #20
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    Is this for real?^ I could just space my 110 rear ends to 120 by bending it with my hands?

  21. #21
    a drinking idea abeabe's Avatar
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    11.4, that is terrible advice. You could easily space out a frame doing this. Not mention weaken the steel dramatically and potentially completely f uck your alignment While it is possible to re-space 110 into 120, that is not the way to do it. You need a proper repair stand and a frame bender. I advise taking it to a frame builder.

  22. #22
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    11.4 >>

    Right, don't take that advice. Nothing against you 11.4 but it's just like bending a piece of metal. Alittle this way, alittle that way and then- snap! A steel frame wouldn't be no different. Even if it's bending no more than 1/2", it's still loosing probably 50% of the strength.
    My advice would be just to get a hub that fits the correct spacing.

  23. #23
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    Alright guys, I just measured my stays - 110mm...But I don't know how to measure the hub. It's tightened up in the frame but it's alittle close to the stays. Any +/- on this? I never knew much about spacing, but it looks like it should work.

  24. #24
    Cornucopia of Awesomeness baxtefer's Avatar
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    11.4 knows what he's talking about.
    Bend away. it's steel. you're moving it 5mm. it does not affect it's strength.
    that is exactly how a framebuilder will align a frame after brazing it. The frambuilder, however, will have an alignment table to check things out after bending. Without a table, you can check alignment with a piece of sting.
    and since you don't have a derailleur hanger you don't ahve to worry about aligning that.

    Don't do this to aluminum.
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  25. #25
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    Filing down dropouts?

    I'm thinking about also filing some off the dropouts. I never heard any negitive feedback from doing this and would save alot of time if I ever decided to get new wheels. But what gets me the most- file the bottom or tops or both of dropouts?

    Tell me what you think.

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