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Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

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Old 01-02-08, 05:06 PM   #1
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slightly OT - jazz sizes are the track frames of the drum world

We pay dearly for those little differences don't we? A few geometry changes and fewer holds and braze-ons = $$$. Want a smaller kick drum than what most people play? Same deal. You'd better be ready to pay up or do a conversion.

Want vintage? It's just like bikes, but on a new level..
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Old 01-02-08, 05:10 PM   #2
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I hear Tony Williams rode a track bike.


but yes, very true.
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Old 01-02-08, 05:15 PM   #3
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This guy is crazy if he thinks he'll get $7k for that set. Cherie Wiloughby has a set of Art Blakley's Gretsch drums from the Messengers that she was trying to pawn off for $10k a few years ago, with no takers. If Blakley's Progressive Jazz set can't fetch $10k, what hope does this guy have? Granted, green sparkle is rare as hell, because so few survived, but without any provenance it's just a fragile old drum.

I think that $3000-$4000 is a much more realistic figure for those two drums.

But yeah, it is a good analogy.

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Old 01-02-08, 05:24 PM   #4
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Just buy an old roger's kit if your looking for jazz sizing, like, 50's and 60;s are prime, plus you get the sparkle finishes on em. Stellar kits, basically the elite of "hip" kits, imho. You can get em for about a grand if your careful, and they will only appreciate in value unless you break em.
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Old 01-02-08, 05:29 PM   #5
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This guy is crazy if he thinks he'll get $7k for that set. Cherie Wiloughby has a set of Art Blakley's Gretsch drums from the Messengers that she was trying to pawn off on my $10k a few years ago, with no takers. If Blakley's Progressive Jazz set can't fetch $10k, what hope does this guy have? Granted, green sparkle is rare as hell, because so few survived, but without any provenance it's just a fragile old drum.

I think that $2000-$3000 is a much more realistic figure for those two drums.
I don't know nearly as much about vintage drums as vintage guitars but that seems like a silly price to me too.
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Old 01-02-08, 05:45 PM   #6
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Just buy an old roger's kit if your looking for jazz sizing, like, 50's and 60;s are prime, plus you get the sparkle finishes on em. Stellar kits, basically the elite of "hip" kits, imho. You can get em for about a grand if your careful, and they will only appreciate in value unless you break em.
Just kinda browsing right now, but I agree. The Rogers stuff is nice.

My current kit is ok I guess (cheapo Premier APK kit - 12/14/18) but the wrap is all ****ed up. I'm using a better snare than what came with the kit so it works ok. I have a friend who works for an instrument builder and is learning their lacquer techniques. I'm hoping we can just strip off the wrap and old glue and refinish them in something dark that won't show the flaws too much. If things work out I might be able to pay him in bike parts/wheelbuilding skillz.

If I get serious about this drumming thing again and get some money coming in I'd like to eventually get something nicer.

I also have the probably-stupid idea of replacing the seat on my drum throne with a Brooks.
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Old 01-02-08, 05:47 PM   #7
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Just buy an old roger's kit if your looking for jazz sizing, like, 50's and 60;s are prime, plus you get the sparkle finishes on em. Stellar kits, basically the elite of "hip" kits, imho. You can get em for about a grand if your careful, and they will only appreciate in value unless you break em.
18" Rogers bass drums have all but disappeared off the vintage market over the past five years, and 14" floor toms are rarer than visions of the Virgin Mary. I haven't even seen a 20/12/14 setup that wasn't beat-to-**** for less than $2000 in two or three years. In fact, looking at eBay, even Fullerton Rogers are commanding more than a grand, so where on earth have you found Rogers in jazz sizes for around $1000?
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Old 01-02-08, 05:54 PM   #8
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For some reason I'm really amazed when I hear BFSSFGers talk about stuff other than bikes. For some silly reason I just never imagine that you guys have other hobbies. Especially other hobbies that I also have.
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Old 01-02-08, 05:54 PM   #9
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uh shouldnt this thread be in politics and religion or something
?
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Old 01-02-08, 05:57 PM   #10
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I've been restoring and selling vintage drums since 1999, so I'm a walking encyclopedia of drum nerdery.
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Old 01-02-08, 05:59 PM   #11
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For some reason I'm really amazed when I hear BFSSFGers talk about stuff other than bikes. For some silly reason I just never imagine that you guys have other hobbies. Especially other hobbies that I also have.
Even funnier is when talk in BFSSFG turns to cars, especially in positive terms. I've seen plenty of threads in which the conversation turns to BMW M cars, or how turbochargers are awesome, which confuses the anti-car cyclists, who usually assume that if someone rides a bike, they must hate cars.
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Old 01-02-08, 06:07 PM   #12
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I'm hoping we can just strip off the wrap and old glue and refinish them in something dark that won't show the flaws too much.
I've had good luck heating the shells lightly with a heat gun, then unwrapping, sanding with 400 up to 2000ish grit sandpaper, then rubbing oil into the shells. I used boiled linseed oil. You have to be careful if they have vintage value, as it can change the sound slightly. I LOVED how it made my drums sound compared to the wrap. I did this to a 80'-90's mahogany with maple veneer (i think) Ludwig. Supposedly there was no diff between the shells of the lacquered vs. wrapped drums of that line. (the wrapped had the same veneer the lacquered did.)

edit: Ill attach a pic of the finished product, but promise you wont make fun of the really really really old pic and horrible choice of drum sticks and lame venue.... and the typical drummer face. haha!
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Old 01-02-08, 06:08 PM   #13
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For some reason I'm really amazed when I hear BFSSFGers talk about stuff other than bikes. For some silly reason I just never imagine that you guys have other hobbies. Especially other hobbies that I also have.
That's why this is the best subforum.
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Old 01-02-08, 06:14 PM   #14
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I've had good luck heating the shells lightly with a heat gun, then unwrapping, sanding with 400 up to 2000ish grit sandpaper, then rubbing oil into the shells. I used boiled linseed oil. You have to be careful if they have vintage value, as it can change the sound slightly. I LOVED how it made my drums sound compared to the wrap. I did this to a 80's mahogany with maple veneer (i think) Ludwig. Supposedly there was no diff between the shells of the lacquered vs. wrapped drums of that line. (the wrapped had the same veneer the lacquered did.)
Cool. Thanks for the tips. I think I may need a harder finish as it's mahogany and some other wood I can't recall with no maple veneer.

...That is if I can't get them powdercoated to match my Arrospok...
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Old 01-02-08, 06:16 PM   #15
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I attached a pic of the finished product above^^^
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Old 01-02-08, 06:36 PM   #16
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This guy is crazy if he thinks he'll get $7k for that set. Cherie Wiloughby has a set of Art Blakley's Gretsch drums from the Messengers that she was trying to pawn off for $10k a few years ago, with no takers. If Blakley's Progressive Jazz set can't fetch $10k, what hope does this guy have? Granted, green sparkle is rare as hell, because so few survived, but without any provenance it's just a fragile old drum.

I think that $3000-$4000 is a much more realistic figure for those two drums.

But yeah, it is a good analogy.
art blakey and the jazz messengers? they have to have been on track frames, they were messengers!
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Old 01-02-08, 07:29 PM   #17
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They must have run breakless too. I've done a few gigs where we accidentally forgot to take our break, once during 3 hour set.

I play piano in a trio, BTW.
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Old 01-02-08, 07:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by jerrymcdougal View Post
I've had good luck heating the shells lightly with a heat gun, then unwrapping, sanding with 400 up to 2000ish grit sandpaper, then rubbing oil into the shells. I used boiled linseed oil. You have to be careful if they have vintage value, as it can change the sound slightly. I LOVED how it made my drums sound compared to the wrap. I did this to a 80'-90's mahogany with maple veneer (i think) Ludwig. Supposedly there was no diff between the shells of the lacquered vs. wrapped drums of that line. (the wrapped had the same veneer the lacquered did.)

edit: Ill attach a pic of the finished product, but promise you wont make fun of the really really really old pic and horrible choice of drum sticks and lame venue.... and the typical drummer face. haha!
+1
Heat up the wraps with a hairdryer/heat gun and slowly peel em off. Sand em, stain em and put a varnish over the top if you are worried about durability/damage. If its a fairly cheap kit, its worth giving a shot, even if you do end up buying a new kit, doesnt cost much, and if you sell you can prolly fetch more green for em if youve done a good modification job.
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Old 01-02-08, 08:08 PM   #19
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I believe it. I use an 18" kick, and I ride a track bike. I lubs teh Jazz.
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Old 01-02-08, 08:10 PM   #20
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I play a jazz kit! But i dont play much jazz on it...
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Old 01-02-08, 08:12 PM   #21
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psh, jazz sizes, gimmie a 24-26" kick, 15" rack tom , 18" floor tom with a 14x8" snare anyDAY, plus a double kick pedal. Jazz is cool though, takes good wrist technique and you gotta be sharp on timing.
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Old 01-02-08, 08:33 PM   #22
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i love jazz, but my kit is lo-fi all the way. pearl export and slingerland snare. I play ok for a guitar player.
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Old 01-02-08, 08:45 PM   #23
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As a quasi-professional, I have to advise you to use extreme caution when heating vintage wraps with a heat gun. Keep a bucket of water handy, and immediately turn your heat gun away if you see the slightest hint of flames. They are extremely flammable, and they will burst into flames almost without warning. I unwrap all drums outside, where I wear goggles and a respirator, since the fumes are toxic.

If you're going to rewrap, don't go with that Jammin Sam tape ****. First of all, "Jammin" Sam Barnard is a ******bag, and second, taping your drums is cheap and the wrap will never "bond" with the shell properly. Use 3M NF30 Contact Cement and you'll get as good a job or better than the factory did, especially if you cut the sheets yourself and file at the bearing edge.
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Old 01-02-08, 08:55 PM   #24
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Track bikes, drums and cars. Wohooo!!
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Old 01-02-08, 09:07 PM   #25
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Started my jazz suite last month.

Working out the tenor saxophone parts...need an alto for solos though.

The piano comp sounds great so far, now to work on the rest...not sure if I will play electric bass or keep it all acoustic, or even if the drums will be played by me or someone else.

So far, all concept, composition, and excecution will be by me.

I'm excited.
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