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  1. #1
    1, 2, 3 and to the 4X
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    Wheelset Questions

    Hello to all.

    I just registered on this forum so if this thread is out of place, my apologies.

    I'm building up a 57.5" Dave Tesch Highway 101 frame as a single speed for year-round, rain or shine, Portland urban riding. I've done some research in various places and decided I want to have some Velocity Deep-V wheels built. Take a look at the options I've explored thus far. If you have suggestions for a different wheelset in the same price range by all means please post.

    Rims
    The inside distance between the rear dropouts is 124 mm. The inside distance between the front dropouts is 100 mm. What size Velocity Deep-V rims are most suitable for my frame? 700C? I know I want MSW because I want to use brakes.

    Hubs
    Assuming I'm going to run 24 spokes in the front and 32 spokes in the rear means I can't use a Surly hub for the front. A White Industries H2 hub was suggested to me. I can still use a flip-flop Surly hub in the rear.

    Spokes
    I'm at a loss. I know that DT Swiss and Sapim are the most common brands. Which model of either would you guys suggest? Is a radial lacing pattern for both wheels the best bet? I was told that I should run 24 spokes in the front and 32 spokes in the rear for if I were to run 32 both ways the ride would be harsh. That and most of my weight is going to be on the rear wheel so logically it doesn't make sense to have wheels with identical spoke counts.

    I'm 6'0", 155 lbs, which are figures I know can be significant in the wheel building process. I went onto Velocity's website to check out some of their online retailers. ProWheelBuilder.com could build a wheelset like that above with DT Swiss Revolution 14g spokes for slightly more than $350. Is this relatively cheap? Who is the cheapest, most reliable Deep-V wheelset builder I could call or email?

    I think that covers everything. I hope I didn't leave out anything critical.

    Thanks chaps,
    Jeff

  2. #2
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    You mean 57.5cm right? Haha, otherwise you'd be riding on a bike almost 5 feet tall. Anyways, to answer your question 700c are the rims you need. Hubs, if they're meant for all weather, as someone in another thread pointed out, you should get sealed bearing hubs due to longevity and design against the elements. So you're probably looking at formula/iro hubs for value. Spoking and wheel pattern, people usually get dt sapim or wheelsmith spokes and 3x back lacing and a radial front. You shouldn't have radial lacing on the back wheel as it would cause spoke failure due to torsional forces acting on the hub due to the drivetrain.

    Lastly, on ebay, I believe there are a ton of deep v wheelsets for around 230 with sealed bearing formula hubs that work fairly well.

  3. #3
    stay free. frankstoneline's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, why deep v's? Dont get me wrong they are good rims, but rims of equal or better quality can be had for a lesser price. I really like the velocity aeroheads, so perhaps you should look into those, also, I agree with the suggestion above to check ebay, deep v's can be had there on the cheap laced to decent hubs, save yourself some green.
    xoxo David
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    katana's out frank! always be ready.
    <edited>

  4. #4
    jack of one or two trades Aeroplane's Avatar
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    Spokes: DT's are a good, safe way to go on that.
    Holes: I have no idea why you are going with a 24h front. The hubs and rims are pretty hard to find, and in general less spokes = weaker wheel. If I were you I'd just go 32h on both.
    I was told that I should run 24 spokes in the front and 32 spokes in the rear for if I were to run 32 both ways the ride would be harsh. That and most of my weight is going to be on the rear wheel so logically it doesn't make sense to have wheels with identical spoke counts.
    Whoever told you this is full of ****, and has no idea what they are talking about. Your weight should be even distributed over both wheels unless you are riding some sort of weird recumbent. And no kind of voodoo magic would make equal spokes on front and back give you a "harsh" ride.

    Lacing: Radial is okay in the front, as long as your hub manufacturer says it is okay. 99% of the time it's a bad idea for a rear, and it's always a bad idea for a flip-flop hub.

    My recommendation is to go 32h front and back, laced 3x on both. Easy, reliable, strong, and any bike shop in the world will be able to true it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Irwin Goldstein
    Men should never ride bicycles. Riding should be banned and outlawed. It is
    the most irrational form of exercise I could ever bring to discussion.

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    Just an aside: the drop-out spacing has nothing to do with what size wheels you can run.

    However, 700c's will fit fine. A surly in the rear is fine (or any other sealed bearing hub.) Up front you can run any 24h hub you want. But those are kind of hard to find. You should consider a 28h hub, like this Ultegra one HERE.

    Lastly, lacing your rear-wheel radially all around is typically not done. I can't remember the reasons, but there are many. 3x has been the standard for a reason.
    trued 'till death

  6. #6
    jack of one or two trades Aeroplane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igneous Faction View Post
    Lastly, lacing your rear-wheel radially all around is typically not done. I can't remember the reasons, but there are many. 3x has been the standard for a reason.
    Radial spokes don't transmit torque very well at all. So they work well enough for a front wheel (unless you are running disc brakes), but a rear wheel won't work very well at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Irwin Goldstein
    Men should never ride bicycles. Riding should be banned and outlawed. It is
    the most irrational form of exercise I could ever bring to discussion.

  7. #7
    my bike Owns me+my wallet Kol.klink's Avatar
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    If you are looking to have uneven spoke count go 28/36. even sheldon agrees.
    if you want some sort of Weird Spoke pattern go Crows for a crows foot radial hybrid.
    But its a good idea to stick with 3x

  8. #8
    jack of one or two trades Aeroplane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol.klink View Post
    If you are looking to have uneven spoke count go 28/36. even sheldon agrees.
    Care to source that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Irwin Goldstein
    Men should never ride bicycles. Riding should be banned and outlawed. It is
    the most irrational form of exercise I could ever bring to discussion.

  9. #9
    end of biters curiousincident's Avatar
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    All the advice you've gotten so far is sound, but I just want to clear a few things up for you just so you know.


    Rims
    The inside distance between the rear dropouts is 124 mm. The inside distance between the front dropouts is 100 mm. What size Velocity Deep-V rims are most suitable for my frame? 700C? I know I want MSW because I want to use brakes.


    I'm not sure if this is what you're implying, but the spacing of the dropouts on your frame have nothing to do with rim size, that is an issue for the hubs. Most of the flip-flop hubs you're going to be looking at will have the right 100mm spacing for your fork, and can be easily made to work with your rear dropout spacing with a couple of washers (track hub spacing for the rear is normally 120mm)
    700c rims are going to be your best choice. You'll have a much better tire selection. If your frame was made for 27" wheels, you may have to find some long-reach brakes, which isn't too difficult - just search this forum and you should be able to find plenty of info about that.

    Hubs
    Assuming I'm going to run 24 spokes in the front and 32 spokes in the rear means I can't use a Surly hub for the front. A White Industries H2 hub was suggested to me. I can still use a flip-flop Surly hub in the rear.


    If it were me, I wouldn't bother mis-matching hubs just to save a few grams on spokes unless I was building a serious racing wheelset. Deep Vs are known for their ruggedness and looks, not light weight.

    Spokes
    I'm at a loss. I know that DT Swiss and Sapim are the most common brands. Which model of either would you guys suggest? Is a radial lacing pattern for both wheels the best bet? I was told that I should run 24 spokes in the front and 32 spokes in the rear for if I were to run 32 both ways the ride would be harsh. That and most of my weight is going to be on the rear wheel so logically it doesn't make sense to have wheels with identical spoke counts.


    Running 32 on both wheels won't be a problem as far as harshness goes. One of the main benefits of using a radial lacing pattern is that it results in a stiffer wheel, which would make your ride more 'harsh'. Radial lacing is fine with me, but I'd rather just run 3x on both wheels - I like being comfortable giving my wheels a beating. As someone said above, radial lacing on the rear wheel is not doable. Some people will get away with doing a radial patter on the non-drive side of the rear wheel, but you don't really need to bother with this.

    I'm 6'0", 155 lbs, which are figures I know can be significant in the wheel building process. I went onto Velocity's website to check out some of their online retailers. ProWheelBuilder.com could build a wheelset like that above with DT Swiss Revolution 14g spokes for slightly more than $350. Is this relatively cheap? Who is the cheapest, most reliable Deep-V wheelset builder I could call or email?

    Depending on what colors you want, Ben's Cycle has some cheaper wheelsets here.



    Edit: or I could have waited five minutes and let everyone give all the answers individually. Oh well.

  10. #10
    my bike Owns me+my wallet Kol.klink's Avatar
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    sheldon brown on spokes


    There is a link on "exotic" lacing patterns near the bottom

  11. #11
    big ring MIN's Avatar
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    I would take it to Molly and company at Veloshop (9th and Burnside) and have them deal with it. I don't suggest radial lacing.

    At your weight, you can run 24 or 28 hole Deep-V rims because the deep profile is inherently stronger.

  12. #12
    Senior Member mihlbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeroplane View Post
    I have no idea why you are going with a 24h front. The hubs and rims are pretty hard to find, and in general less spokes = weaker wheel. If I were you I'd just go 32h on both.
    Whoever told you this is full of ****, and has no idea what they are talking about....
    Its fairly common to have fewer spokes in the front wheel for obvious reasons. The front wheel transmits no torque, bears much less weight, and is symmetrically dished. If you have an equal number of spokes on each wheel, then the distribution of those spokes is suboptimal. Many (road) wheelsets have fewer spokes on the front and they are still stiffer and tend to outlast rear wheels.

    On a FG/SS there is less of a need for uneven spoke counts because both wheels are symmetrically dished, but the rear wheel still bears more weight and transmits torque. With modern wheel components, 24 spokes in front and 28 in back is sufficient (if built properly) for most normally sized people riding on the streets, especially with a deep rim and not doing tricks.
    Last edited by mihlbach; 02-01-08 at 12:25 PM.

  13. #13
    end of biters curiousincident's Avatar
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    ^ I believe he was calling bull**** on the fact that the OP was told having 32h on both wheels would make a 'harsh' ride. Which is bull****. It's OK to have fewer spokes on the front wheel, but it seems that the OP was going to go through too much of a hassle to build his wheels that way on the basis of misinformation.

  14. #14
    big ring MIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousincident View Post
    ^ I believe he was calling bull**** on the fact that the OP was told having 32h on both wheels would make a 'harsh' ride. Which is bull****. It's OK to have fewer spokes on the front wheel, but it seems that the OP was going to go through too much of a hassle to build his wheels that way on the basis of misinformation.
    In theory: 14 spoke wheels have a harsher ride than 32 hole wheels because the 14 spoke wheel requires more spoke tension.

    But all of this can be mitigated by using less tire pressure and wider tires.

  15. #15
    Senior Member mihlbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousincident View Post
    ^ I believe he was calling bull**** on the fact that the OP was told having 32h on both wheels would make a 'harsh' ride. Which is bull****. It's OK to have fewer spokes on the front wheel, but it seems that the OP was going to go through too much of a hassle to build his wheels that way on the basis of misinformation.
    I think you are right, however Aeroplane's response gives the impression that unequal spokes is a bad idea, when in fact it is a good idea. He is wrong in stating that "Your weight should be even distributed over both wheels unless you are riding some sort of weird recumbent". On any normally proportioned upright bicycle, the rear wheel bears more weight.

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    I run 24h/28h wheels w/ fusion rims (lower profile than the Deep V) all day with zero problems. 1x front, 1x/3x rear
    I also run 28/36h wheels w/ mavic reflex (similar to Open Pros) and have had zero probems with those either. radial front/ radial/ 3x rear.


    I weigh 148 and am 5'10"

    I don't/can't do tricks, ride SS, and ride pretty lightly on my wheels. I think as long as your wheels are built well, for your weight, 24/28h should be no problem at all.

  17. #17
    jack of one or two trades Aeroplane's Avatar
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    I was mostly calling BS on the 32+32=harsh comment. We all know spoke count isn't nearly as critical as people make it out to be. Yeah, you can cut weight on the front wheel more easily, but going down to 24h is a pretty drastic cut. Weight distribution isn't 50-50 front and back obviously, but it's not 25-75 either.

    I still recommend 32 and 32 laced 3x on both because finding hubs and rims is the easiest, building (or having them built) is easy, and it looks good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Irwin Goldstein
    Men should never ride bicycles. Riding should be banned and outlawed. It is
    the most irrational form of exercise I could ever bring to discussion.

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    I guess I should preface my earlier statment by saying I only ride about 2k miles a year. My dad who rides cross country twice a year (once east-west, once north-south) thinks people doing long distance rides should ride at least 32h 3x. He probably puts on 10k a year,.... if not more.

    I think the OP need to consider mileage, weight, road conditions, and riding style prior to determining what setup is best for him. JMO

  19. #19
    1, 2, 3 and to the 4X
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    Wow. I didn't expect so many detailed responses in such a short amount of time. Thanks to all of you for your input so far. Thanks also for talking some sense into me. Sometimes I can become quite fixated on doing things my way.

    I've checked eBay several times and I can't find any yellow Deep-Vs with MSW. They're all NMSW. Some alternatives I came up with:

    1. http://cgi.ebay.com/AERO-TRACK-WHEEL...QQcmdZViewItem

    2. http://cgi.ebay.com/YELLOW-WEINMANN-...QQcmdZViewItem

    How do JoyTech hubs match up against Formula hubs? Are Weinmann wheels decent?

  20. #20
    end of biters curiousincident's Avatar
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    ^ If you run out of options, you can run brakes on NMSW rims with minimal issues. The paint will rub off, you might get some squeaking, and some people might say that you'll get a little less braking power. I'd stick with Velocity rims over the Wienmann knock-offs. They seem to be decent if you're really in a pinch on cash, but the quality is noticeably lower - in particular, I hear they have really ugly seams. I don't think there is any reason to buy any hub of lesser quality than Formulas. I don't know anything about those Joytech hubs, but Formulas are pretty much sure to not let you down.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
    I think you are right, however Aeroplane's response gives the impression that unequal spokes is a bad idea, when in fact it is a good idea.
    This is true. I would like to point out one thing though - one par with Sheldon's thinking on the subject, if somebody is considering a 32/32 spoke count, they should go 28/36 instead of just dropping spokes from the front wheel. The idea is to put the strength where it's really needed, not cut it out of the equation all together.

    This is all pretty nit-picky though. My thinking is that it's almost always better to over-build unless you're a serious racer. Besides, there are other things that are going to play a bigger factor here, such as how well the wheel is built. It's probably a good thing the OP is going for deep v's, their deep profile can kind of make up for a little bit of error in all of these build issues.
    Last edited by curiousincident; 02-01-08 at 01:41 PM.

  21. #21
    Senior Member mihlbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousincident View Post
    This is true. I would like to point out one thing though - one par with Sheldon's thinking on the subject, if somebody is considering a 32/32 spoke count, they should go 28/36 instead of just dropping spokes from the front wheel.
    I agree with you (and Sheldon) in principle about spoke redistribution versus spoke subtraction. However, a total of 64 or even 72 spokes with deepVs is total overkill for many, if not most people. Overkill is fine if your not concerned about weight or not interested in monitoring the condition of your wheels. However, others (like myself) appreciate well-built light wheels. You can certainly drop the total number of spokes and still have an adequate durable wheelset, assuming of course, that it is tensioned properly in the first place and not ridden like a $10 *****.
    Last edited by mihlbach; 02-01-08 at 02:20 PM.

  22. #22
    end of biters curiousincident's Avatar
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    ^ I'll definitely give you that, I forgot to add 'if you know what you're doing' to the serious racer qualifier.

  23. #23
    Senior Member mihlbach's Avatar
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    Instead of agreeing, aren't we supposed to repeatedly call eachother ******bags and other insulting names? How else will the thread continue?

  24. #24
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    I would check the wheelbuilder over at universalcycles.com They did a great job on my deep v wheelset and even custom ordered me something that they didnt carry for it.

  25. #25
    stay free. frankstoneline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
    Instead of agreeing, aren't we supposed to repeatedly call eachother ******bags and other insulting names? How else will the thread continue?
    I thought someone was supposed to make a crack involveing arrospoks? Isn't that how BFSSFG works?
    xoxo David
    Quote Originally Posted by metaljim View Post
    katana's out frank! always be ready.
    <edited>

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