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Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

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Old 02-15-08, 05:24 PM   #1
I_luv_hooters
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Which one: Phil or Paul?

I'm shopping for new hubs to replace my budget cheap 32H Milaukees that are on velocity fusions. I've narrowed it down to 2 hubsets I want: Phils or Pauls. They are close in price. I seem to remember something about Paul having a different chainline than everyone else. Is that true? Any other considerations?
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Old 02-15-08, 05:27 PM   #2
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I've always liked Phils more, but there's no real reason for that. They are both extremely well made.
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Old 02-15-08, 05:30 PM   #3
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Yes, Paul has a different chainline, and, as he explains on his site, he didn't discover it until he'd a had number of hubs made.
So he decided to sell them anyway.
Well, I applaud him for his honesty.

If I have that wrong, I apologize to Paul, but I remember reading it on his site.

Go with Phil.

No doubts, no worries.

I just wish Phil made a headset, then a person could go all Phil; hubs, bottom bracket, and headset.
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Old 02-15-08, 05:30 PM   #4
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yes, it's true. Paul's chainline is 44mm. Which means that if you didn't want your chainline to be 1.5mm off, you'd have to get a longer bb spindle. But the chainline difference won't be noticeable - it's negligible.

Both are very well-made hubs, both are a good decision. Prolly says that his Phil/Open Pro wheels are much heavier than his Paul/Deep V wheels. shrug. Both will last you a long time.
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Old 02-15-08, 05:31 PM   #5
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Yep, Paul hubs have a 44mm chainline.
I have them and they are great, but you do have to do some calculation to get the spacing right. Just get the right length bottom bracket and you are good to go. Mine are very smooth and the lockring is super burly.
Plus everyone has Phils...
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Old 02-15-08, 05:32 PM   #6
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Other options:

Dura Ace low flange hubs.

Everyone who reviews them acknowledges them as bullet-proof, the smoothest on the market, and the lightest.

And, they cost less than Phils.

Downside: loose ball and grease require maintenance.
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Old 02-15-08, 05:33 PM   #7
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wrong, SeanBonham, it's 44, not 46.

like I said, if your chainline is off by 1.5mm, it's a negligible difference. But you could try to find a spindle that's 3 or 4 mm longer to compensate.

Ken Cox, DA hubs are great, but compared to the burliness and extremely strong and effective seals of both Phil and Paul hubs, DAs are really poorly protected from the elements - water, sand, grit, et cetera. They're fine hubs, but in a completely different category.
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Old 02-15-08, 05:35 PM   #8
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wrong, SeanBonham, it's 44, not 46.

like I said, if your chainline is off by 1.5mm, it's a negligible difference. But you could try to find a spindle that's 3 or 4 mm longer to compensate.
yeah 44mm, I did a google search and it brought up 46mm, but whatevs...
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Old 02-15-08, 05:36 PM   #9
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Dura Ace is for the track, not the street.

The nice thing about the 44mm chainline is that it does give you a bit more flexibility when using a road crank.
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Old 02-15-08, 05:37 PM   #10
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I have opened my Phil rear hub a few times, and I can attest that the fabrication is top notch, and the bearings are the highest quality - in line with what you'd expect from such a hub. Not saying anything against Paul hubs, just that you'd definitely be very satisfied with Phil's.

But I would also agree about the quality of the Shimano Dura Ace. Shimano makes fantastic!! hubs, and priced very aggressively.
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Old 02-15-08, 06:11 PM   #11
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I can't do DuraAce because of the rain here - no way to avoid it. I agree that Pauls are more unusual and that was a factor I considered (I like to be different). The black Phils are pretty badass and I'll probably get them. Now begins the price shopping for a 32H hubset. Current best = $269 on eBay ($9 shipping).
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Old 02-15-08, 06:12 PM   #12
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I wub my Pauls and my dura ace 7710's. If you were using a set of track cranks I could see the argument about paul's chainline but if not I wouldn't let that affect your decision.
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Old 02-15-08, 06:27 PM   #13
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I can't do DuraAce because of the rain here - no way to avoid it. I agree that Pauls are more unusual and that was a factor I considered (I like to be different). The black Phils are pretty badass and I'll probably get them. Now begins the price shopping for a 32H hubset. Current best = $269 on eBay ($9 shipping).
You just have to keep your eyes open. I got an almost brand new red rear phil hub built up to a black deep V for $200 off craigslist when I was visiting SF
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Old 02-15-08, 06:28 PM   #14
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If I felt like throwing a bunch of money at hubs, they'd be Phil, no question about it.
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Old 02-15-08, 06:43 PM   #15
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The black low flange Phils look pretty hot - you don't see them often. Oh, and I am running track cranks -75s, so the chainline does matter.
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Old 02-15-08, 06:49 PM   #16
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The black low flange Phils look pretty hot - you don't see them often. Oh, and I am running track cranks -75s, so the chainline does matter.
chainline always matters, but having a chainline that's 1.5mm off doesn't really matter.
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Old 02-15-08, 06:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dobber
Dura Ace is for the track, not the street.
Really?
How so?

A local bike mechanic rides Dura Ace in the same nasty environment in which I ride, and he services his Dura Ace's twice a year, not because they need it, but because he feels guilty if he doesn't.
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Old 02-15-08, 07:03 PM   #18
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i don't think DAs are sealed, right?
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Old 02-15-08, 07:09 PM   #19
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Just for grins, Phil hubs weigh 534gm for the pair.

Dura Ace hubs weigh 501gm for the pair.

Not much difference.

Phil hubs cost $275 and Dura Ace hubs cost $200 for the pair.

Phil hubs require almost zero maintenance, and I don't know how much maintenance Dura Ace hubs require.

I hear a lot of different stories from people regarding the maintenance of Dura Ace hubs.

Universally, though, reviewers describe Dura Ace as the smoothest hubs going.

I'd like to hear from somebody who has ridden Dura Ace for a year or two in a dirty urban environment.
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Old 02-15-08, 07:10 PM   #20
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Yeehaw! I just now bought this set at a decent price: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=024

Now... which spokes are best for a big 230lb guy like me? I heard straight gauged can be stronger than double butted. Is that wrong? I want bombproof. What brand and size spoke is "the best" for my new Phils? Thanks you guys.
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Old 02-15-08, 07:14 PM   #21
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i don't think DAs are sealed, right?
Wrong

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Originally Posted by Ken Cox View Post
Really?
How so?

A local bike mechanic rides Dura Ace in the same nasty environment in which I ride, and he services his Dura Ace's twice a year, not because they need it, but because he feels guilty if he doesn't.
Ask him again when he's pitted the **** out of his stuff. Messengers that ride on DA hubs. Do you know what they have to do? Drill a hole in the hub and flush it out with grease everyday to keep them fresh.

Buy Miches, phils or pauls if you don't want to wreck stuff while riding in garbage. The worst you're going to do on these cartridge bearings is destroy the cartridge bearings. $20 replacement and you're done.

Also, riding dura ace on the street voids warranty, guess why. Same deal with campy. Dura ace hubs spin much smoother than Phil or Pauls however, that's the advantage of loose ball.
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Old 02-15-08, 07:28 PM   #22
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just got phils with silver deep v's and i'm really excited.
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Old 02-15-08, 07:40 PM   #23
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Really?
How so?

A local bike mechanic rides Dura Ace in the same nasty environment in which I ride, and he services his Dura Ace's twice a year, not because they need it, but because he feels guilty if he doesn't.
I'm thinking the word "Track" might be an indicator (is said mechanic riding track or road hubs?).

I have DA hubs on my GTB. Wouldn't even consider the fact that they're meant for any kind of adverse condition riding. The few times I've been caught out in the rain with them, I've given them proper treatment afterwards.

No, they won't asplode all over the road, but they sure as heck ain't gonna stand up like a pair of Deore LX hubs.
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This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.
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Old 02-15-08, 08:28 PM   #24
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Yeehaw! I just now bought this set at a decent price: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=024

Now... which spokes are best for a big 230lb guy like me? I heard straight gauged can be stronger than double butted. Is that wrong? I want bombproof. What brand and size spoke is "the best" for my new Phils? Thanks you guys.
if you want a strong wheel, you want doublebutted spokes. if spokes break, they break by the nipple or at the head. double butted spokes reinforce these areas, and have thinner central areas - this allows them to flex, which is important in the wheel's strength. if a wheel flexes a little, it will be deal well with impacts. if it cannot flex, it will be brittle and break. ani difranco knows wheelbuilding -

"buildings and bridges were made to bend with the wind, to withstand the world, that's what it takes. all that steel and stone is no match for the air, my friend. what doesn't bend breaks."
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Old 02-15-08, 08:47 PM   #25
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come onnnn
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