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Old 05-20-08, 08:48 AM   #1
snot69
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Frame Dilemma: Bareknuckle of Kazane?

Getting a new frame and it's between a bareknuckle or a kazane. I just want to see what people's opinions are. Also do they use different grade steel?
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Old 05-20-08, 09:11 AM   #2
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i really like the bareknuckles.
but, that's me.
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Old 05-20-08, 09:30 AM   #3
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I like my bareknuckle a whole lot. That said, good luck getting one unless you wan to buy it used.
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Old 05-20-08, 09:31 AM   #4
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The Bareknuckle is made in Italy of Dedacciai COM tubing. (their kind of oversized, double-butted 4130 CrMo)

The Kazane is made in Taiwan of... ...steel.

However, the Kazane looks more like an NJS Keirin bike, which entirely the point of the Kazane. (let's not kid ourselves.)

If I had to pick one, I'd take the Bareknuckle. I like its TIG construction better, I like that it uses a 1-1/8" headset, and I like its sloping fork crown. (I also like that it's not attempting to be something that it's not.)
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Old 05-20-08, 10:39 AM   #5
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I have a bareknuckle that I spent the winter building up. I love it.

They are pretty hard to find tho. I had the money stashed and looked for a long time, then jumped on it when I finally found one.
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Old 05-20-08, 10:48 AM   #6
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i really like my bareknuckle, like everyone else that owns one.

that said, the fork is heavy and imo not great looking. and bareknuckles are notorious for annoying amounts of toe overlap. my lbs just told me they raised the price on them pretty substantially as well.
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Old 05-20-08, 12:17 PM   #7
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The Kazane is 4130 too.

I say go withe Kazane because Stratton and I have been friends for years. In that time he has actively support local racing by running clubs, putting on races, sponsoring racing teams, and giving prizes to alleycat races (as well as getting me into the sport). Not that they Bareknuckle is not an equal bike but EAI has not done any of those things. Support the guys who support you back...

Braden
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Old 05-20-08, 12:38 PM   #8
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be different and give the kazane a shot. It's not like it will be hard to sell if you end up hating it. Then your not just another bareknuckle on the road. Then again the bareknuckle is beautiful and rides great... what do I know just get a look carbon
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Old 05-20-08, 12:59 PM   #9
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It seems every other bike i see is a bareknuckle.
I think theyre boring, overpriced and, as said above, the fork is ugly.

I would choose the Kazane between the two.
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Old 05-20-08, 02:19 PM   #10
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When I saw the Kazane, it didn't impress me, particularly those dropouts. As far as I can tell, they are identical to the Alien frame, but cost an extra two hundred dollars.

Inexplicably, the Kazane's also have cable guides under their bottom bracket shells.

For the price of either of those frames, Mike at Terraferma cycles will personally construct a custom frame according to any specification.
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Old 05-20-08, 03:18 PM   #11
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I haven't tried either of the frames but I'd personally go for the Kazane because of the more classic looks & style. Supporting Stratton and his venture also would make more sense for reasons presented above.
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Old 05-20-08, 03:58 PM   #12
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I don't know what your budget is, but there are other options out there. (Nor do I know if those two models are what you've whittled a long process of elimination down to.)

For a little more you can have a custom frame made, either locally or abroad.

Then there's the option of getting a professionally-used Keirin frame. With a little patience and research, they can be had for reasonably cheap and with no rust or dents. These nearly always come with high-quality headsets and bottom brackets. The only really expensive NJS frames are from the highly desirable builders. (3Rensho, Makino, Samson, Kalavinka, Nagasawa, et al.) The Vivalos, Bridgestone-Anchors, Panasonics, Stratos can all be had for less than five hundred dollars in perfect structural condition. (Add the cost of a headset and bottom bracket to the price of the Bareknuckle or Kazane.) Sure, the paint won't be perfect, but Japanese paint is usually painfully thin. A hundred dollars later, it's got an indestructible powder-coating.

...And you know it's a competent race bike because a competent racer shelled out his own hard-earned money on it.
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Old 05-20-08, 05:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by trelhak View Post
For the price of either of those frames, Mike at Terraferma cycles will personally construct a custom frame according to any specification.
the frames look nice....and how much would that cost?

cheers
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Old 05-20-08, 11:43 PM   #14
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The Kazane is 4130 too.

I say go withe Kazane because Stratton and I have been friends for years. In that time he has actively support local racing by running clubs, putting on races, sponsoring racing teams, and giving prizes to alleycat races (as well as getting me into the sport). Not that they Bareknuckle is not an equal bike but EAI has not done any of those things. Support the guys who support you back...

Braden
the guy who started EAI (he has passed, but his family run the business still) was instrumental for having the Encino Velodrome built, as well as raising money later to have it rebuilt/renovated. I used to hang out there while my mom and brother used to train on it, cool place...
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Old 05-21-08, 12:05 AM   #15
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I say go withe Kazane because Stratton and I have been friends for years.
good enough for me!

jk but really, the "trying to be an njs frame" thing turns me off to the kazane, although i have bought things from stratton in the past and he has been nothing but great. if you have to have one or the other, i would go bk (yay, threadless!)

but of course, at what it costs to get either one of these you could have a whole hell of a lot more if you looked elsewhere (ahem, ebay)
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Old 05-21-08, 01:26 AM   #16
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I agree that a MUCH better option than either of BK or Kazane would be buying a used Keirin frameset directly from Japan, like those Gabe has for sale here:

http://njs-keirin.blogspot.com/

Cheaper, better & cooler.
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Old 05-21-08, 10:43 AM   #17
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I wouldn't say the Kazane frames are TRYING to be NJS. Visually they are influenced by the design of many keirin bikes but that's about it. They Kazane is more of an all purpose track bike by design and in the threadless set up is more at home in mass start track events then in a Japanese keirin. People need to get over this comparison to NJS frames. Compared to most other NEW frames in its price range the Kazane is an equal or better value. I think everyone seems to forget that all those discount NJS frames that come over here do so because they have been crashed. Most of the time it doesn't matter in the least bit but sometimes it means dented or mis-aligned frames.

If you want a used keirin frame buy a used keirin frame.
If you want a new steel track frame with a classic look to is buy a Kazane (but go for the threadless... nothing says "trying to hard" like a nitto jag stem and bar with only the tops taped)
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Old 05-21-08, 10:47 AM   #18
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It seems every other bike i see is a bareknuckle.
I think theyre boring, overpriced and, as said above, the fork is ugly.

I would choose the Kazane between the two.
seems like every other bike I see is lugged keirin, its getting pretty boring...
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Old 05-21-08, 12:10 PM   #19
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seems like every other bike I see is lugged keirin, its getting pretty boring...
At least theyre worth the money.
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Old 05-21-08, 12:33 PM   #20
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So Bareknuckles are ugly, Kazane's are designed to pose and NJS Keirin bikes are overpriced, beaten-to-hell junk whose owners all pose.

Quite a conundrum...

Stratton at K.C. may be a great guy, but he's also trying to make some money. If he sells a track bike that is designed first and foremost for racing only, it will be pure, but it will also be ugly. Making it look like an NJS frame, giving it a Japanese name, and marketing it as being designed by a former Keirin pro says to me, "Do you want a Keirin bike without paint chips, rust and toptube dents?"

Terraferma bikes (http://www.terrafermacycles.com/ordering/ordering.htm) cost about the same as a Bareknuckle, a Kazane, or a pro-used Keirin frame.

Speaking to establish my bias and point of reference, my current racebike (no brakes, so no street-riding) is a Vivalo that I got from Gabe at njs-keirin. It's only a season old, so the paint has the usual little chips here and there, but there were no dents, no horrible bitemarks in the track ends and no rust. With a Super Swan Headset and a Sugino 75 Bottom Bracket (both of which came in near-perfect, well-maintained condition) it still only cost me around five hundred dollars to my doorstep.

Forget about style or posing or trying to carefully stand out from the crowd without standing TOO far out from the crowd. That, right there, is just a tremendous value.
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Old 05-21-08, 12:46 PM   #21
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At least theyre worth the money.
there is no way you can argue that keirin frames are worth the 700+ dollars you would be hard pressed to find them cheaper than. Enlighten me as to how a used, probably wrecked, frame is worth as much or (probably) more as a brand new bareknuckle costs.
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Old 05-21-08, 01:35 PM   #22
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Amen...

Buying a used frame without knowing it history is always a risk. Its a myth that steel frames last forever. The three used frames that I bought in the last 3 years all cracked within 1,000 miles. Never again. I'll take fresh steel please.
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Old 05-22-08, 11:25 PM   #23
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[QUOTE=bradenCBC;6729043]The Kazane is 4130 too.

I say go withe Kazane because Stratton and I have been friends for years. In that time he has actively support local racing by running clubs, putting on races, sponsoring racing teams, and giving prizes to alleycat races (as well as getting me into the sport). Not that they Bareknuckle is not an equal bike but EAI has not done any of those things. Support the guys who support you back...

Braden[/QUOTE

So you recommend a particular brand because it's owned by your friend? Certainly nothing wrong with the suggestion that people take a look at a friend's product... But, how credible is your claim that " EAI has not done any of those things" ? What do you even know about EAI's history in the sport and with sponsorship? Answer: Nothing. Either that or you're just completely biased because as you admitted, Stratton is your friend.

Look, Stratton ( I don't know him ) may very well be one of the nicest guys in the industry; Kazane is probably a very decent frame ( never seen, or ridden one) and you certainly have every right to recommend whoever you want to. But you're way off the mark with your claim of EAI's lack of support and sponsorship. Thing is, many people in the sport and on this forum know a little something of EAI's contribution to racers, clubs, organizers and cycling in general, so it was only a matter of time before somebody called bs on you.

Recommend whatever and whoever you want. But about stuff you know nothing about, STFU.
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Old 05-23-08, 08:18 AM   #24
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the fork crown hits the kazane's dt on the smaller frames = FAIL
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Old 05-24-08, 06:03 AM   #25
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[QUOTE=Halcyon Days;6745735]
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The Kazane is 4130 too.

I say go withe Kazane because Stratton and I have been friends for years. In that time he has actively support local racing by running clubs, putting on races, sponsoring racing teams, and giving prizes to alleycat races (as well as getting me into the sport). Not that they Bareknuckle is not an equal bike but EAI has not done any of those things. Support the guys who support you back...

Braden[/QUOTE

So you recommend a particular brand because it's owned by your friend? Certainly nothing wrong with the suggestion that people take a look at a friend's product... But, how credible is your claim that " EAI has not done any of those things" ? What do you even know about EAI's history in the sport and with sponsorship? Answer: Nothing. Either that or you're just completely biased because as you admitted, Stratton is your friend.

Look, Stratton ( I don't know him ) may very well be one of the nicest guys in the industry; Kazane is probably a very decent frame ( never seen, or ridden one) and you certainly have every right to recommend whoever you want to. But you're way off the mark with your claim of EAI's lack of support and sponsorship. Thing is, many people in the sport and on this forum know a little something of EAI's contribution to racers, clubs, organizers and cycling in general, so it was only a matter of time before somebody called bs on you.

Recommend whatever and whoever you want. But about stuff you know nothing about, STFU.
EAI has not been involved in grass roots level stuff in some time. Their connection to elite level track racing through riders like Josiah Ng and their support of ADT event center is NOT the same as supporting the level of the sport that people on this board are more likely to be involved in. The earlier post about EAI's early history is just that HISTORY. This year I have seen Kazane/Keirin Culture be VERY active in supporting track racing at the grass roots level through a variety of channels.

I deal with EAI on a weekly basis and they are good guys but their interest in the sport does not cover the average beginner track racer (except selling parts to their LBS so they can buy them).

Throughout the bike industry there are always going to be companies that take different approaches to supporting different parts of the sport. Weather you compare a company like Timbuk2 (great product, great history, different company now...) to ReLoad (great product, great history, currently actively supporting many alleycat races) or EAI to guys like Stratton, IRO, and so on there are always going to be reasons to go in either direction. In the case of the Bare Knuckle vs. Kazane the man behind the latter makes a big effort to promote cycling (not just his brand) right here in my home town (as well as other places like Atlanta) by promoting races and sponsoring riders at all levels of the sport from professional track cyclists like Jeff Hopkins to local bike messengers that have crossed over to racing.

There are plenty of companies like EAI and Oschner that have a really great past but this year there are new guys who have taken up cause as larger companies out grow their grassroots past. I don't expect the bigger import companies to change their way of doing business and return to supporting the little guy because they don't need to. There will always smaller companies like Kazane, ReLoad, IRO, Richard Sachs, ALAN North America, Red Rose, Bailey Works and so on... that do focus on the sport at MY level.
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