Sinn

Is there not some tension between saying that the NJS takes maintaining safety as a concern but that they do not take having the best components for track racing as a concern?

shants

If we were comparing two models of the same bottom bracket, one with a 110mm spindle and one with a 130mm spindle, I would be inclined to agree that the 130mm setup is more likely to break. That is to say, your statement is true, all other variables being equal.

But, when you are comparing outboard bearing systems to traditional bottom brackets, there are crucial differences in the design that make such a statement false. If you read my original response, the distance of the crank arms from the spindle's fulcrums (the bearing contact points) is different in the two, which changes the amount of torque that you apply when pedaling, even if the two spindles happened to be the same length. Furthermore, the material and construction of the spindles in the two bottom brackets is too different for your assertion to apply in this comparison, even if it were generally true.

This all said, "harder to break" doesn't bear any relation to "stiffer than." You seem to be associating the two. None of the bottom brackets that we're discussing are prone to breaking, so I am not even sure why you're worried about it. The reason for the Omnium's lack of NJS certification has nothing to do with safety. Potential differences in the materials used for construction aside, I think the relative stiffness of outboard bearing models compared to traditional bottom brackets has been sufficiently demonstrated.

Jabba Degrassi

You do know that it's entirely possible to have a component that is perfectly safe, but isn't the absolute stiffest, lightest, most durable component on the market, right?

operator

Crank looks ugly, the bb looks ugly and the whole thing looks ugly. If you want ulgy omniums the answer.

Soil_Sampler

operative words are equal diameter.

these two cranksets do not.

there is more than one type of force acting upon these two different spindles.

andre nickatina

The NJS board is infamous for keeping foreign companies out of their standards. Campy had to do a lot of ass kissing to get their stuff certified, and were only NJS for a few years. This whole NJS argument is utter nonsense and you shouldn't even factor the fact that Sugino 75's are NJS into your decision unless you were trying to build a mostly or all NJS bike.

Also, what your mechanic is saying contradicts the experiences of myself, my roadie friends who have switched from square taper to outboard bearing setups, my match sprint buddy who prefered the stiffness of his coach's Omniums over his Octalink Dura Ace's (and this is a Men's A class guy), and the majority (I'd say everybody but I'm not positive) of the racers at the Tour de France, if not the majority (again I'd say everybody but there could be someone out there who doesn't) of pro road racers period. Some of the track pros are making the switch to Omniums as well in the pro peloton if you look at the pictures of their bikes. Plain and simple, outboard bearing cranksets are a stiffer design by nature, the only thing that you can throw into the argument is the BB30 standard that Cannondale and a few others are trying to push.

ilive41

Omniums are "ugly" and will cause more drama amongst the forum lovers. Get them.

Sorry, but they are great looking in person. Online, yeah, not the best looking, don't really stand out too much. 75's are amazing. I think Omniums look amazing. I'm installing in about an hour so we can discuss that tomorrow, and I can provide pics on the bike.

I've asked around a bit and a lot of track "pro's" have recently (for the most part) taken to liking the Omniums, whether or not they ride them, and admit that they didn't used to like them. I think it's good riders stepping out and actually testing the parts that give them credibility.

And the argument was flawed... two sticks in your hand, one is shorter, same wood, etc... different materials being used, different torque amounts being applied. The bearings are further out, so take the shorter stick and try and break it with your hands close together, try and break it with your hands far apart...
Consider the variables, compare apples to apples. This argument is going to be won. They are preference issues, not factual issues. And Irvine must raise up some goofy bike mechanics, or the guy wasn't thinking clearly.

Sinn

I am glad to hear your responses to my mechanics reasons not to get the Omnuim cranks. I think that I've learned from you all.

I agree with Shants that not being prone to break does not imply stiffness and vice-versa. Stiffness is a quality of the pedal stroke. Durability a quality of the gearset. And these two qualities do not necessarily depend on one another.

I also like to hear that track riders here in the US are becoming more open to the Omnium set up.

I should also say that I've done further research into the NJS and I now concede that the NJS is baised towards Japanese products. But this is no secret. The NJS is the JAPANESE Bicycle Society after all, and one if their explicitly stated goals is to promote the Japanese bicycle industry. I like Sheldon Brown' brief blurb on NJS:

They have very strict standards, with the intention of preventing mechanical failure and "leveling the playing field" among the athletes.

Not all of the N.J.S. standards actually relate to quality as such, but rather act to promote interchangeability of parts and tools. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_n-o.html

And so the appeal to NJS is not in itself a good criterion by which to prove the superiority of the Suginos over the Omnuims.

And the reasons to think that the Omniums are just as durable (note: not stiff, I am conceding that they are stiffer) as the Suginos seem plausible. Of course, one could go determine this empirically. But I'll leave that up to someone else.

My mechanic is kind of biased on certain things. His tastes in cycling componentry is, I guess, rather traditional. He, for example, does not like Surly cogs (in fact, he thinks that they are trash), but he totally digs the EAI cogs that are of comparative price. This opinion of his seems to me to be flawed. Perhaps he has just not yet given the Omniums a try. (Also, he is not from Irvine. He's Australian. You should know that practically noone from southern California is actually "from" southern California. I am a born and bred Texan myself.)

Thanks for your input. Interesting conversation so far.

Still, does anyone have pics of a Surly Steamroller (or at least a frame with comparable geometry) with Omnium cranks on it? I'd love to see one.

andre nickatina

Hey on the EAI vs. Surly cog thing... I personally have had great luck with all my EAI cogs, they run more silent than anything else including Suntour, Surly and DA cogs. With Surly, I personally have had fine experience with them (ran quiet) but I've had friends who had issues and said they weren't durable or were really loud. If you look up 11.4's posts on the subject he says Surly's are machined poorly in the teeth and if anyone knows EVERYTHING about track components, it's 11.4. He seems to prefer EAI too.

Either way, EAI cogs rule! And DA is good after 200 miles of wearing in, not so good brand new out of the box for me.

Sinn

Are these the "hand-filed" EAI cogs (about $70 - $90) or the machined (I think that is the proper word) ($30) cogs?

andre nickatina

Regular old 30 dollar ones.

Sinn

Well, then. My LBS mechanic's credibility is not completely questionable. Huh?

I may just go w/ Phil. woods cogs.

andre nickatina

Lots of people report lots of different things for their cogs and there's a million variables when it comes to fixed drivetrains. I wouldn't trust anyone other than 11.4 personally. Some people love Dura Ace and hate EAI, just sayin'.

shants

sugino gigas or bust.

andre nickatina

I'd rather have this:


Seems like the best available... definitely total overkill for the street and (IMO) on the track if you're not atleast cat 3...

sneaky viking

I got a set of these + bb (take offs) from my lbs:


thinking about putting one ring on the inside.

ilive41

After test riding the Omniums, I'm a fan.

The guy who installed them races a lot and is pretty in the know. He said they are just about the best crank available, and by just about, he meant the sugino 75's are THE best. So, as far as opinion goes, there you have it.

However, everyone stands around in this particular bike shop, and a few people said "dammmn". They do look beautiful with the chrome pedals/clips/double straps. Very nice. Hollow axle is so rad. It's actually my favorite part.
The straight angle-less crank is not something I'm used to.

I'm used to the user friendly crank bend, and I chunked my ankle on my test ride... it was still bleeding this morning. It's scary how close it comes to touching the frame, but having my legs/feet a little closer together will be a great advantage. Again, very excited.

I've gotten a lot of information from the forums so once I finish my bike (maybe today?) i'll post a few pics and overview... i'll receive a lot of flack for the money spent on a Dawes build, but I'm happy with it.

fixedup

My friend just switched from the sram omniums to the suginos and he rides 24miles commuting everyday and rides the **** out of his bike and he loves the suginos way more he says. Plus they look better.

jpdesjar

suginos look real nice...i think they would be a better fit on the steamroller too

dutret

so sugino 75s are better than DA now? Saying they're better than FSA and SRAM is quite a stretch but DA is out of the question. He doesn't sound that much in the know.

$480 for a set? More like overkill unless you're making a world record attempt.

Sinn

I'm afraid that I don't quite get what you're trying to say with this comment. Forgive me if I am just being obtuse.

Anyways, bought the 75's today. 46/17 gearing (its very hilly where I live). I look forward to climbing with these new cranks. They should be in in about a week. My LBS has agreed to let me use their tools (and their guidance) to install the cranks myself. So in probably a week or two I'll have some pics up.

Thanks for all your help (even though I did not get the Omniums). I should say that aesthetic qualities were a part of the deciding factors. The Omniums just seem too burly for the Surly. But the confidence of more of y local cyclists buddies in Sugino was also a deciding factor.

Next step ... ride the sh*t out of the Sruly set-up, try to race her at the track, get my ass kicked, and (when I'm worthy) get a kick-ass frame and a nice wheelset to put those Suginos on (if they last).

jpdesjar

burly and surly seem to fit...hmmm

andre nickatina

Huh? Who said anything about sets? I'm not a Rockefeller here!

If you bought one of those EAI Gold Medal cogs and already had an assortment of chainrings to change out to mix up the gearing, I don't see how that'd be overkill.

dutret

EAI gold medal cogs are not just overkill for cat 4's but for pretty much anyone.

Sinn

For whom is it not?