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Thread: S3X Spacing

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    S3X Spacing

    Yeah yeah, I used the search funciton but I couldn't seem to find any info on the width of Sturmey Archer's promised S3X hub. Seems like 120mm would be the most likely choice as there aren't a lot of horizontal dropout bearing frames these days in anything other than that spacing these days.

    Anyone have any recent word?

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    cab horn
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    Haha... s3x. Now is that really a coincidence.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silver_ghost View Post
    Seems like 120mm would be the most likely choice as there aren't a lot of horizontal dropout bearing frames these days in anything other than that spacing these days.
    You're joking right. There's about 8 trillion older frames that are 126 that have horizontal spacing out there.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

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    tcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver_ghost View Post
    Yeah yeah, I used the search funciton but I couldn't seem to find any info on the width of Sturmey Archer's promised S3X hub. Seems like 120mm would be the most likely choice...
    Yeah, uh, I think you're thinking like a derailleur user.

    Sturmey hubs adapt to a wide range of OLDs. The famous AW3 can get into 110mm OLDs and the very same hub - with spacing nuts on the axle - can go into a 130. You adjust the chainline with spacers and dished cogs. I bet the S3X will work the same way.

    HTH,
    tcs
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    You're joking right. There's about 8 trillion older frames that are 126 that have horizontal spacing out there.
    No, I wasn't joking. I know about older road frames, they're generally what I prefer to ride myself, but I figured Sturmey/Sunrace would likely be marketing this hub at owners of new frames/bikes as well as vintage/garage sale geeks. As far as I know, aside from single speed mountain bikes, the only new frames being widely produced these days with track ends tend to accept 120mm rear hubs.

    Thanks, tcs, for the info about variable OLD's.

    The other thing I wonder about is the cog retention system. Does Sturmey Archer have a proprietary spline that is consistant across all of their hubs? I know SA has a great reputation for long term serviceability and parts availability, should I expect to be able to find replacement cogs ten years from now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by silver_ghost View Post
    The other thing I wonder about is the cog retention system. Does Sturmey Archer have a proprietary spline that is consistant across all of their hubs? I know SA has a great reputation for long term serviceability and parts availability, should I expect to be able to find replacement cogs ten years from now?
    The traditional three spline pattern interface on Sturmey hubs for the last hundred years is the same, and the same as most coaster hubs, and the same as all other three-, four-, five-, seven-, and eight-speed internal gear hubs from Shimano, SRAM and Sachs, and even the same as SRAM's new Torpedo fixed/free hub. These cogs are cheap and common, available black or chrome, flat/dished/deep dished, from 13T to 23T, and made by Sturmey, Shimano, SRAM, Velosteel, KT, etc.

    However, there are reports that the new S3X will use the nine tooth spline pattern of Shimano freehub cogs. However however, the only picture released of the S3X without a cog on it showed a "double-three" spline pattern on the driver, which would accept the traditional Sturmey cogs and also accept theoretically stronger ones using six splines.

    I think the cog thing won't be an issue, but I'm not sure at this point what the final configuration of the S3X driver will be.

    HTH,
    tcs
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

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    tcs
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    Dimensions of initial version here.

    tcs
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

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    When will this be released? What will be the price? And is anybody else bummed that the cog does not thread on with a lockring holding it in place? I am a little scared of being too rough on the coaster-brake-style system.

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    Are you kidding? The splines are far more durable than aluminum threads; you'll never have to worry about them stripping. It still employs something like a lockring, but it's a steel spring circlip that makes it impossible for the cog to lift out of position.
    I've never heard of a single case of a coaster brake of 3speed cog coming off while in use, ever. (though now, someone's going to jump in with some horror story...)
    mi yu mi yu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seggybop View Post
    Are you kidding? The splines are far more durable than aluminum threads; you'll never have to worry about them stripping. It still employs something like a lockring, but it's a steel spring circlip that makes it impossible for the cog to lift out of position.
    I've never heard of a single case of a coaster brake of 3speed cog coming off while in use, ever. (though now, someone's going to jump in with some horror story...)
    No I am not kidding. Thank you for asking. Do you have some evidence about what appears to be a six "spline" system held on by a round ring being more durable than a properly installed lockring and cog? Most coaster brake and internally geared hubs have never been put through the amount of torque applied during a strong skid on a fixed gear.

    ALSO: the quality of cogs that I am looking for really doesn't exist in this internal gear world.

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    The circlip is the same cog retention system as SA has used for a long time. Some SA hubs did use a thraded system as one of the members of the Yahoo Geared Hub Bikes group has one. Per an old parts catalog on the SA Heritage web site from about 1952 or so they also did a multi spline cog hub version pre WWII apparently as the cogs were still listed as available in the catalog. Looked to be 10 or 12 splines. I have never seen such SA hubs but they were made.

    I have never had a problem with removing or damaging the circlips on my SRAM/Sachs gear hubs.

    For those interested here is a link to the Yahoo group. Primarily gear hub support but also for all those interested in all types of non-derailleur gear trains.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared_hub_bikes/

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    tatfiend, thanks for the informative post. I did some further investigating and discovered that the cogs system has more than 6 splines, and it is in fact a Shimano spline that they are using.

    I guess they haven't released the price or delivery date yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wearyourtruth View Post
    in all fairness... one of those threads is actually about kitties.

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    tcs
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    O.K., for those unable to actually read the linked blog text or drawing, the official word is the S3X will use the same 9 spline cog pattern that Shimano has used on their freehubs for 25 years. SA is showing 12T and 13T cogs, other companies already make SS cogs in other sizes for the Shimano 9 spline pattern.

    Rumors out of Interbike were $150 USD for the hub+cog+shifter, available "early 2009".

    tcs
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    Rumors out of Interbike were $150 USD for the hub+cog+shifter, available "early 2009".
    If this is the case, I am sold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darksiderising View Post
    If this is the case, I am sold.
    And to add to that, it is ridiculously cheap.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

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    After seeing the shifters, I am 100% certain I am buying at least one of these! For the lazy, pics:

    Quote Originally Posted by coppertop4646 View Post
    it sounds like a jet engine behind you supposively

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    Damn those shifters are sexy, in a 'glad to see some semblance of quality, not cheap plastic' sort of way. I'm in for one. also, glad to see they did bar end, now just waiting for the downtube mod.

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    Wicked! Thanks for posting the new info, tcs, it's nice to have someone else keeping on top of this so I don't have to. Nice to see Sunrace/Sturmey posting such detailed schematics.

    Here's a question for you; On the SA blog they're trying to gauge interest in a 130mm OLD version of the hub. If the axle is 170mm long as indicated by the diagram, wouldn't a 5mm spacer on either side of the axle do the trick? The 20mm of axle remaining on each side should be enough to accomidate droputs and axle nuts, shouldn't it?

    The reason I'm obsessing over the OLD of this hub is that I'm having a custom frame built with which I'd like to use the S3X, but I can imagine wanting the option of using a regular cassette hub and derailluer sometime in the future. So far, these dropouts: http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/p...5&categoryId=2 spaced to 130mm seems to be the most versitile option.

    darksiderising, I may well be wrong, but I feel like skidding will probably not be recommended with this hub. Stumey Archer internals have the reputation for being tough, but applying that kind of extreme back pressure to springs and pawls sound like a recipie for voided warranty.

    Nice to see this project coming together. I was afraid for a while it was just bound to be a nerdy pipe dream. Now I sure hope someone distributes it in Canada!

  20. #20
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    Silver Ghost;

    At least on the shifter side the special axle nut used has to go on a certain distance for lining up the shift chain marker with the window in the nut for proper shifter adjustment. Spacing the 120mm hub to 130 might not allow this so shifting chain adjustment could be a PITA. I suspect that a longer axle on that side, minimum, would be necessary for the wider spacing. Maybe also a different shifter chain assembly.

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