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Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

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Old 08-20-09, 11:46 AM   #1
pedalpedalpedal
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Matsuri track frames?

I've found a listing on my local Craigslist that is for a "Matsuri" frameset.


here's the ad: http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/va...318555328.html

Is the frameset worth the $350?
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Old 08-20-09, 12:36 PM   #2
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hmm I've never heard of that particular brand. If the frameset is NJS, then I would say that it is worth $350, especially w/ the extras. Even if it's not NJS, if it's nice it's worth $350. Ask the guy if it is stamped NJS on the BB shell. The name definitely sounds japanese...
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Old 08-20-09, 05:10 PM   #3
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Its not NJS but is Japanese.
Something related to Nissan iirc but dont quote me on that part.
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Old 08-20-09, 05:44 PM   #4
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the scratches make the frame look even better
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Old 08-21-09, 09:03 AM   #5
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$350 for a beat up track frame? NJS or not, you're paying for fashion here, not function.
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Old 08-21-09, 09:29 AM   #6
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$350 for a beat up track frame? NJS or not, you're paying for fashion here, not function.
To be fair, the ad only says "a few scratches," and I've yet to actually see it in person as I'm out of town right now.
Are you saying that even if it's in good condition (albeit scratches) that he's charging more for the "style?"
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Old 08-21-09, 09:37 AM   #7
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I like the frame, but it's quite small, are you sure it will fit you?
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Old 08-21-09, 02:37 PM   #8
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I've seen a few that have come through my friend's bike shop and occassionally one would be locked up next to me at work. They look to be of good build quality and I know the owner of one who loves hers.

Deathhare, but were they ever NJS certified?
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Old 08-21-09, 09:19 PM   #9
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Deathhare, but were they ever NJS certified?
Not that I've ever seen but Tomity could tell us for sure if someone cares enough to PM him.
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Old 08-22-09, 05:47 AM   #10
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just thought i'd take a moment to note that tomity is all sorts of awesome.
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Old 08-22-09, 05:53 AM   #11
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http://homepage.mac.com/tomity/Menu20.html
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Old 08-22-09, 12:24 PM   #12
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I've seen a few that have come through my friend's bike shop and occassionally one would be locked up next to me at work. They look to be of good build quality and I know the owner of one who loves hers.

Deathhare, but were they ever NJS certified?
Why does it matter unless you're a professional Keirin rider?
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Old 08-22-09, 12:47 PM   #13
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Why does it matter unless you're a professional Keirin rider?
well, there is this one bar in Austin that won't let you in unless your bike is 100% NJS certified. Last weekend I tried to sneak in w/ a 90% NJS build, but it didn't have NJS wheelset, so they kicked me out. It was the most embarrassing moment of my life, John.
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Old 08-22-09, 07:48 PM   #14
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well, there is this one bar in Austin that won't let you in unless your bike is 100% NJS certified. Last weekend I tried to sneak in w/ a 90% NJS build, but it didn't have NJS wheelset, so they kicked me out. It was the most embarrassing moment of my life, John.
Funny boy. Even Austin isn't that weird.
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Old 08-23-09, 06:19 AM   #15
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Why does it matter unless you're a professional Keirin rider?
Because it would say everything about the quality of the build and would therefore affect what its really worth, IMO.
Id definitely pay more for it if it were NJS.
Not to say non-NJS frames aren't built well or aren't worth much but on a frame where you know little about where it came from or who built it, the NJS stamp is a bit of a guarantee that it was built with care and built well.
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Old 08-23-09, 01:06 PM   #16
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Because it would say everything about the quality of the build and would therefore affect what its really worth, IMO.
Id definitely pay more for it if it were NJS.
Not to say non-NJS frames aren't built well or aren't worth much but on a frame where you know little about where it came from or who built it, the NJS stamp is a bit of a guarantee that it was built with care and built well.
NJS certification isn't a designation of quality; it's merely an indication of compliance to an arbitrary set of standards for Keirin racing. The only quality expected is that the part not fail during racing. NJS certification is intended to minimize variation among bikes in order to emphasize the riders' abilities. To that end, many modern improvements in cycling technology are not permitted in Keirin racing. In many ways, the NJS group makes even the UCI look like a bunch of cutting edge punks.
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Old 08-23-09, 02:26 PM   #17
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NJS certification isn't a designation of quality; it's merely an indication of compliance to an arbitrary set of standards for Keirin racing.


that just happened.
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Old 08-24-09, 09:27 AM   #18
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NJS certification isn't a designation of quality; it's merely an indication of compliance to an arbitrary set of standards for Keirin racing. The only quality expected is that the part not fail during racing.
To further expand on this, when parts are worn or damaged they are retired from racing use because nobody wants to lose their NJS approval over a failure during a race. In the past, these parts and frames were simply scrapped; now they are sold to people like "deathhare."

So when you buy a retired NJS frame, what you are buying is a frame that has been pulled from service because the risk of failure was seen to be greater than the cost of a new frame. If it were my money, and I was concerned about quality, I know I'd rather have a frame built for me by one of the many highly competent North American frame builders over buying a beat up frame built for somebody else and with an unknown and unknowable history of use/abuse.
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Old 08-24-09, 11:02 AM   #19
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To further expand on this, when parts are worn or damaged they are retired from racing use because nobody wants to lose their NJS approval over a failure during a race. In the past, these parts and frames were simply scrapped; now they are sold to people like "deathhare."

So when you buy a retired NJS frame, what you are buying is a frame that has been pulled from service because the risk of failure was seen to be greater than the cost of a new frame. If it were my money, and I was concerned about quality, I know I'd rather have a frame built for me by one of the many highly competent North American frame builders over buying a beat up frame built for somebody else and with an unknown and unknowable history of use/abuse.
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Old 08-25-09, 08:46 PM   #20
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To further expand on this, when parts are worn or damaged they are retired from racing use because nobody wants to lose their NJS approval over a failure during a race. In the past, these parts and frames were simply scrapped; now they are sold to people like "deathhare."

You are wrong there John.
We only bring in new NJS frames that have never been ridden or even built up.

And that part about NJS not being a designation of quality is right and wrong.
Its mostly just your opinion as the quality is inherent in the builder's strict adherence to standards that must be followed on each build.
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Old 08-25-09, 10:04 PM   #21
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You are wrong there John.
We only bring in new NJS frames that have never been ridden or even built up.
Sorry; and thanks for clarifying that. But this thread was ostensibly about buying a used NJS frame with unknown history, not one of the new frames you offer.

Quote:
And that part about NJS not being a designation of quality is right and wrong.
Its mostly just your opinion as the quality is inherent in the builder's strict adherence to standards that must be followed on each build.
That's true, and the builders of Keirin frames are true craftsmen. But for that money, I'd still prefer to get a frame custom made to my requirements, rather than an off-the-peg build.
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Old 08-25-09, 10:49 PM   #22
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If the used NJS rame is 300-700 it doesn't seem like that bad of a deal over getting a frame built for you at 1500-2000.. but 1000-1500 used NJS would be ridiculous and you may as well get one built for you.
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Old 08-25-09, 11:10 PM   #23
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That's true, and the builders of Keirin frames are true craftsmen. But for that money, I'd still prefer to get a frame custom made to my requirements, rather than an off-the-peg build.
So where can you get a lugged steel track frame made for $350?
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Old 08-26-09, 09:32 AM   #24
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So where can you get a lugged steel track frame made for $350?
Sorry, I was referring to deathhare's $1,100 new NJS frames.

Still, there's no point (except to make a fashion statement) to pay a premium for a used NJS frame.
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Old 08-27-09, 12:27 PM   #25
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Why does it matter unless you're a professional Keirin rider?
I'm just curious based on the frames I have seen. If I recall correctly, both were Ishiwati tubing and had nice lugwork.

In general, I could care less about NJS certified. NJS certification may mean a particular standard - not necessary the best, but certainly not even close to the worst - but when it comes to frames, it is more about employing a frame building method that and a craft and skill not readily available in most frames these days. I'm biased toward lugged frames and but I'm even more so biased toward Italian and English frames.
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