Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Racine, WI
    My Bikes
    Colnago Super
    Posts
    50
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    why nuts vs. skewers?

    I was riding today and thinking about getting/making a fixed geared bike...you have a lot of thinking time on a long ride. I've always wondered why they use axle nuts versus QR on fixed geared bikes. I've never been a track rider or had experience with track riders but I was a mechanic for about 10 years and my experience was that a QR actual has as much or more holding power than any nut (I work on a lot of BMX) because of the cam system within a QR. Add a textured axle nut and I don't see any slipping. I don't see a weight advantage. Solid axle and nuts vs. hollow axle and skewer (lightweight skewer presumed). I can see if you were actually on a track why fixed is the only way because changing is not an option, but most riders today seem to be using them for zipping around town. Is it just something that has not changed with the times and they keep it with nuts? Remember, before the sarcasm from "fixie" riders, I am a novice to this realm but would like to try it.

  2. #2
    PoN
    PoN is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Fairfield, California
    My Bikes
    1979 Nishiki International, 1989 Dahon folder, 1999 Nishiki Backroads, 2009 Dawes SST
    Posts
    209
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A couple recent threads on that topic...
    Quick release track wheel for Fuji Track
    Fixie Skewers?

  3. #3
    Senior Member the_don's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,917
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Your sarcasm cuts deep and true PoN!

  4. #4
    Run What 'Ya Brung bonechilling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Before the advent of quick-releases, bicycle wheels were secured with very large wingnuts. These were considered dangerous on the track because a misplaced pedal or even a fall in the wrong place could send the wheel flying, so a bolt-on axle became the standard, and nothing ever changed.

    For real though, I think it's nearly impossible to move a properly tightened quick release on a bike, but if anyone could, it's Gregory Bauge or Chris Hoy at a standing start.
    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    the main cause of fit problems is riding your bike

    you should have just stopped riding so you could focus on color coordination

  5. #5
    coasterbrakelockup lz4005's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    parts unknown
    My Bikes
    surly steamroller w/coaster brake, electra single speed cruiser, specialized rockhopper commuter, no-name single speed folder, 700c ultimate wheel, 24" unicycle, specialized bmx lsd, single seat single speed huffy tandem, pink upsidedown parade bike
    Posts
    825
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    From a practical standpoint, quick release wheels are more easy to have stolen.

    Its also easier to get a rear wheel in track ends aligned properly and your chain tensioned the right way if you can tighten the right/left nuts independently of each other, something you can't do with a QR.
    Ride lots, have fun, skid often!

  6. #6
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    5,425
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    From a practical standpoint, quick release wheels are easier to lock up. I've used a QR skewer on my front wheel for a while, and when i need to lock it up, I take the five seconds to remove it, put it with the rear, and boom - both wheels locked with a u-lock.

    It just makes more sense.

    There are... strains of obsession with track standards among the fixed gear folk, despite the fact that it's unnecessary. There are also talk of fixed gear riding being "harder on parts," and thus comments about how QRs wouldn't hold up to pedaling forces. Though lz5004 makes a decent point about tensioning a chain tightening the left and right nuts independently of each other.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  7. #7
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    Though lz5004 makes a decent point about tensioning a chain tightening the left and right nuts independently of each other.
    You can actually set the tension faster and easier with practice than having to go back and forth securing each side and walking the wheel to where it needs to be.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  8. #8
    AEO
    AEO is offline
    Senior Member AEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
    My Bikes
    Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
    Posts
    12,245
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by lz4005 View Post
    From a practical standpoint, quick release wheels are more easy to have stolen.

    Its also easier to get a rear wheel in track ends aligned properly and your chain tensioned the right way if you can tighten the right/left nuts independently of each other, something you can't do with a QR.
    all it takes to steal a nutted wheel is a 15mm wrench that fits in my pocket.
    it just keeps honest people honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    You can actually set the tension faster and easier with practice than having to go back and forth securing each side and walking the wheel to where it needs to be.
    This is my experience as well. QR is easier and faster than wiggling a wheel with nuts.

    I should really get around to chopping the axles on my rear so I can use a QR with it.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  9. #9
    Fresh Garbage hairnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    10,915
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    all it takes to steal a nutted wheel is a 15mm wrench that fits in my pocket.
    it just keeps honest people honest.
    It's weird how many people I see trusting their axle nuts to theft prevention. I could have a field day with my wrench at school.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrodzilla View Post
    I'd rather ride a greasy bowling ball than one of those things.
    Bikerowave
    My Bikes

  10. #10
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    all it takes to steal a nutted wheel is a 15mm wrench that fits in my pocket.
    it just keeps honest people honest.
    I carry my hand with me more often than a 15mm wrench...
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Racine, WI
    My Bikes
    Colnago Super
    Posts
    50
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Great replies. Thanks for the insight. I can really see the advantage of a nut system for setting the wheel to the gear. Lock the left and find the high point on the chain...makes sense for a true track rider. But for an around town (spinner?) fixed bike it sure seems like QR is a plus. Not that I have ever stolen anything in my life, but carrying a wrench around a college campus would be very tempting! lol Here's my next question, flip hub? I have what I need for a fixed bike except the rear hub. I've seen pictures of a double crank (39/42? I have an old Galli crank that I could use as a double) or is it better to have a single crank with a flip hub?

  12. #12
    Fresh Garbage hairnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    10,915
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    How well do you guys think a double cog works with double cranks, considering chain length/tension?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrodzilla View Post
    I'd rather ride a greasy bowling ball than one of those things.
    Bikerowave
    My Bikes

  13. #13
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hairnet View Post
    How well do you guys think a double cog works with double cranks, considering chain length/tension?
    Double chainrings or just a double crank with a single chainring? Can't imagine the former working very well unless the chainrings is spaced really close together and you have exceptionallyl long dropouts. Otherwise you'd have to add/remove links just to switch gears.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  14. #14
    Fixed-gear roadie JacoKierkegaard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Wilmington, NC
    My Bikes
    2008 Masi Speciale Fixed
    Posts
    1,048
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    Double chainrings or just a double crank with a single chainring? Can't imagine the former working very well unless the chainrings is spaced really close together and you have exceptionallyl long dropouts. Otherwise you'd have to add/remove links just to switch gears.
    That double chainring thing is pretty much the exact setup I've heard of using, and it actually is supposed to work pretty well. Have a chainring that's just a couple teeth smaller coupled with a cog that's a couple teeth bigger and you have an appreciably lower gear with the ability to use the same length chain. Or go the other way with a bigger gear, as long as you make it just a couple teeth different for each it'll fit. Just loosen the rear wheel to get some slack to move the chain and you can get to a different gear pretty easily.

    I remember reading a post on Fat Cyclist where he tried out a bike set up like this and really liked it.
    2008 Masi Speciale Fixed

  15. #15
    Double Agent Astronomical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    your girl's bed
    My Bikes
    Fly Pantera, GT GTB
    Posts
    1,187
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    QR users, you are reading a post from the future owner of your wheels. Lock carefully.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Davis/Lafayette, CA
    My Bikes
    1984 trek 460 conversion, 2008 Lynskey R320, Peloton track bike, 1990's MBK trainer, 2004 Fisher tassajara, 70's Raleigh Gran prix. 70's moto mirage conversion (stolen), 80's Shogun Kaze (sold)
    Posts
    2,015
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    the only shady thing imo about QR levers on track bikes is the front doesn't have the lawyer tabs on most bikes. probably not a problem with old closed cam skewers, but i guess with the new open cam ones it could be dangerous. I've done it no problem, and it's less sketch than a lot of bikes on this forum, but not entirely suggested.

  17. #17
    AEO
    AEO is offline
    Senior Member AEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
    My Bikes
    Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
    Posts
    12,245
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LupinIII View Post
    the only shady thing imo about QR levers on track bikes is the front doesn't have the lawyer tabs on most bikes. probably not a problem with old closed cam skewers, but i guess with the new open cam ones it could be dangerous. I've done it no problem, and it's less sketch than a lot of bikes on this forum, but not entirely suggested.
    not a problem with open cam skewers either.
    the only 'supposed' problem arises when you use a disc brake which puts forces to the open end of the fork dropouts, ejecting the wheel. but only IF you don't close the QR properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by JacoKierkegaard View Post
    That double chainring thing is pretty much the exact setup I've heard of using, and it actually is supposed to work pretty well. Have a chainring that's just a couple teeth smaller coupled with a cog that's a couple teeth bigger and you have an appreciably lower gear with the ability to use the same length chain. Or go the other way with a bigger gear, as long as you make it just a couple teeth different for each it'll fit. Just loosen the rear wheel to get some slack to move the chain and you can get to a different gear pretty easily.

    I remember reading a post on Fat Cyclist where he tried out a bike set up like this and really liked it.
    I've read that you want the exact amount of teeth difference for the chainrings as well as the cog.
    for a 17/19T, you want 2T difference chainrings.
    for 17/21, you want  4T difference chainrings.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  18. #18
    Run What 'Ya Brung bonechilling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    not a problem with open cam skewers either.
    the only 'supposed' problem arises when you use a disc brake which puts forces to the open end of the fork dropouts, ejecting the wheel. but only IF you don't close the QR properly.
    There are a number of accounts of this happening with a properly tightened open-cam skewer, but only on tandem bicycles.
    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    the main cause of fit problems is riding your bike

    you should have just stopped riding so you could focus on color coordination

  19. #19
    A little North of Hell
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    4,371
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    white double/double

    Quote Originally Posted by hairnet View Post
    How well do you guys think a double cog works with double cranks, considering chain length/tension?
    works perfect.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

  20. #20
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by JacoKierkegaard View Post
    That double chainring thing is pretty much the exact setup I've heard of using, and it actually is supposed to work pretty well. Have a chainring that's just a couple teeth smaller coupled with a cog that's a couple teeth bigger and you have an appreciably lower gear with the ability to use the same length chain. Or go the other way with a bigger gear, as long as you make it just a couple teeth different for each it'll fit. Just loosen the rear wheel to get some slack to move the chain and you can get to a different gear pretty easily.

    I remember reading a post on Fat Cyclist where he tried out a bike set up like this and really liked it.
    So smart selection of chainring size is the key.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  21. #21
    Run What 'Ya Brung bonechilling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Surly intends for the Dingle to be used with a dual chainring setup. Here's the text from Surly's website:

    Dingle Cogs are part of a different concept for fixed-gear drivetrains. Having two cogs on the back means you have more options for gear changes when the conditions demand it. For instance, say you want to ride your off-road fixie from your house to the trailhead, but your gear combo is either too high for the dirt or too low for the road. With a 17/19t Dingle on the back, pick two chainrings that are 2 teeth apart, like a 44t and a 42t. When you change from the outer (44:17t) gear combo to the inner (42:19t), you’ll have a much better off-road gear and your wheel position will not change. This maintains effective chainstay length so you won’t have to worry about having too much or too little chain length to accommodate the gear change. The Dingle (the word derives from from dual and single) works great in hilly terrain both on or off-road. Like our cassette and track cogs, these are made from machined, heattreated and chrome plated SCM415 CroMoly steel, so they are tough and long lasting. They’re available in 3/32" (narrow chain) tooth width 17/19t, 17/20t or 17/21t combinations. We recommend using 9-speed chains only. You can thread it onto any standard ISO threaded (1.375x24tpi) fixed gear hub and it takes up the same 7.4mm threads as a standard fixie cog. We recommend using a wider lockring (like our improved track lockring) to assure you can get a lockring tool onto it.
    Quote Originally Posted by doofo View Post
    the main cause of fit problems is riding your bike

    you should have just stopped riding so you could focus on color coordination

  22. #22
    Senior Member Arabesque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Arabesque
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The White Industries crankset and freewheel posted by soil_sampler above is called the Double/double.
    Here is the text from the website..... "The Double/Double is a unique drive train system the we offer. The system is comprised of a double chainring machined from one piece of aluminum, mated with an ENO crank and a DOS ENO freewheel. The configuration for a 26" wheel bike is offered with a 38/35 big ring mated with a 16/19 freewheel. The 29er configuration mates a 31/34 ring with a 16/19 freewheel. The system works by either running the chain in the outer tooth positions or, alternatively, in the inner tooth positions front to back. The gear ratios are significantly changed when switching from one combination to another, however, the chain length does not need to be altered to accommodate the two differing ratios. Running the ring in the outer position tends to be more suitable for on-road style riding, whereas, riding in the inner ring position lends itself more to off-road riding."

  23. #23
    . bbattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Huntsville, Alabama
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Trevisio, 1991 Colnago Master, '06 Bianchi San Jose, 1987 Moulton Fuso, '80's Gardin Shred?, '82 John Howard(Dave Tesch)
    Posts
    11,762
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by coloneluw View Post
    I was riding today and thinking about getting/making a fixed geared bike...you have a lot of thinking time on a long ride. I've always wondered why they use axle nuts versus QR on fixed geared bikes. I've never been a track rider or had experience with track riders but I was a mechanic for about 10 years and my experience was that a QR actual has as much or more holding power than any nut (I work on a lot of BMX) because of the cam system within a QR. Add a textured axle nut and I don't see any slipping. I don't see a weight advantage. Solid axle and nuts vs. hollow axle and skewer (lightweight skewer presumed). I can see if you were actually on a track why fixed is the only way because changing is not an option, but most riders today seem to be using them for zipping around town. Is it just something that has not changed with the times and they keep it with nuts? Remember, before the sarcasm from "fixie" riders, I am a novice to this realm but would like to try it.

    It's Hipster Irony. You'll notice that Campy track hubs do not come with quick release skewers.

  24. #24
    . bbattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Huntsville, Alabama
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Trevisio, 1991 Colnago Master, '06 Bianchi San Jose, 1987 Moulton Fuso, '80's Gardin Shred?, '82 John Howard(Dave Tesch)
    Posts
    11,762
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    Double chainrings or just a double crank with a single chainring? Can't imagine the former working very well unless the chainrings is spaced really close together and you have exceptionallyl long dropouts. Otherwise you'd have to add/remove links just to switch gears.
    Check out Rivendell's Quickbeam SS/FG.

    My bike isn't as dramatic a change but it is effective.





    48-44T crankset with 17-20 Dingle. 18T SS on the flip side. I've used the 48-17(76gi), 48-20(65), 44-17(70gi) fixed and 48-18(72gi) and 44-18(66gi) singlespeed. The 44-20 is 59gear inches; chain fits but I've not needed to ride that low a gear.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •