Sixty Fiver

Besides being strikingly handsome, charming, tasteful, and total babe magnets, Scrod and I have a few other things in common... we work on bikes... all day.

Besides this, I build some rather fine wheels and am presently apprenticing with a frame builder.

If the wheel is not laterally true this will not affect the balance by much and if it not radially true it has something we like to call "hop" which something a well built wheel should not have and you don't need much of this to notice it.

I don't deal in fractions when I build and true wheels... I deal in thousandths of an inch with 5/1000 being my usual tolerance for radial and lateral deflection but strive to build 0/0 wheels.

dsh

The guy who started this thread is the same person who argued that one cannot tell the difference between straight gauge hi-ten and chromoly just from riding on a frame.

That's IRONIC, in a "rain on your wedding day" kinda way.

fuji86

Ahhh, one of the disbelievers ? Such the jaded skeptic ? Wouldn't you agree that there is a difference between the 2 topics ? I'd really like to hear your theories on this. Although the negative approach is such an easy way out ? I was very conscious to return the tire to it's original position after performing all the work that I did. The tube has no choice other than to install the way it must because of the valve stem. And the rim liner has to go that way too, as the valve stem hole is where it is ? Tire was properly inflated. So what does that leave ? I didn't loosen/tighten spokes, I didn't loosen/tighten the hub. The wheel for all intents and purposes is centered as it was. I wonder why it spins differently after the work that was performed, perhaps my failure would please you more ? You realize things get fixed all over the universe ? And when someone spends a few hours and accomplishes something. perhaps you'd prefer a theory of divine intervention as opposed to cause and effect of work performed ?

fuji86

With tolerances like that, I'm certain the wheels you build & true are very fine. The tech that did my wheels I felt did a fine job, I was able to watch him do it as I rode the bike in that day, took him about an hour. As to the tolerances, I couldn't say. I know to the sense of feel in my finger tip, there is very little if any untrueness that remains at the bottom of the tire when fixed to a static position on the frame (seat tube) and fork (the under side of it as the wheel spins thru the fork tines).

"Hop" = imbalance

When you spin your wheel(s), does the valve stem orient itself at the bottom ?

vw addict

Did you make sure you had summer air in the tire? The wrong season of air will throw off the balance of the wheel

jeffdeegan

Was the rear wheel attached to the drive train? i still think that this is such a minute issue that you would never notice it while riding. I got a flat on my rear wheel recently and had to buy a long valve tube because it was the only one that was the right size. I also started keeping my presta adapter on the extra long valve. Absolutely zero difference in the way it rides....

dsh

I never implied that you didn't accomplish anything with your attempts to "balance" the wheel.

What I was trying to point out was the comical inconsistency of your stance when it comes to barely-discernible variations in bicycle performance. To wit: you claim you notice when a radially/laterally true wheels is off balance by a few grams, and at the same time argue that a straight gauge hi-ten frame and a chromoly frame are not differentiable to the rider.

PedallingATX

WOW...OCD much??

CrockerCock 

So let me guess after all this work to "fix" a balance problem your average riding speed hasn't increased and your bike has gone from being a ****ty ride to the smoothest ever. I really don't see the point in any of this.

adriano 

Sixty Fiver

Hop is what happens when a rim in not radially true and while it is technically an imbalance it is not an imbalance as far as rim weight goes... if a wheel is radially true to 5/1000 this is adequate and you are never going to feel this and even be challenged to see it.

When I spin the wheels on my bike I usually go places...

Seriously... making sure your rims are five by five is a good thing, obsessing over how less than a gram of weight on a rim / wheel affects a ride is a little much as wheels can be pretty f'd up and most folks won;t be able to tell if there is anything wrong with them.

I am a bit of a princess... but that part of my job.

It's Friday and quitting time is only a few hours off... some cold beer and some riding is the order of the day.

six30nine

So what happens when you have to replace a tube and/or tire?
If you patch a tube at the 3 o'clock position, do you also add patches at 12, 9, and 6 o'clock?
Do you carefully check your tire tread & pick out all the little rocks & grains of sand before each ride?
Do you make sure to evenly distribute the contents of your pockets to ensure proper L to R weight distribution?

ichitz

+1
lol at not being able to tell difference btwn hi-ten and chrmo frame in terms of ride feel, and not being able to tell difference btwn foot retention or not in cycling (yes, this topic again) but OCD on grams of wheel balance.

I guess i should stop patching tubes. Everytime i patch a tube it completely throws off my wheel balance and i get really frustrated. Then I have to re-file my rims every night coz skidzz are taking away my tire weight at random locations!!

adriano 

also, you proposed that most bicycles are stolen by picking locks.

fuji86

Never said that, but it's better than it was.

fuji86

Never said that either, but I pointed out that after a brief tutorial on you tube, a little practice, perhaps even you could pick a lock in the time it actually took them to pick one without narrating the process. Let's see, what looks more suspicious carrying a car jack/torch around and cutting a lock or using the right tools ? The u-locks that can be picked with a bic pen, that takes about 4 seconds (my first try it took me 7 seconds on my own lock), so why would anyone carry a car jack around ? The key and combo locks, the video shows 40 seconds or better. Anyway, aren't you late for your manicure ?

CrockerCock 

When its upside down or are you actually riding your bike now?

fuji86

This is too rich ? The two of you trying to draw a parallel to the 2 subjects. The difference between discerning 2 coated/painted steels at a molecular level vs enough weight to throw off the balance of a wheel at a given point in it's circumference. And disbelieving that one is more discernable than the other ? Some rely on gauges, others rely on sensory nerve endings in their fingers and yet others might be able to use the wheels, high air pressures and torsionally stiff frames to feel the road or even imperfections in the components to discern imbalances ? But since you are an expert on steel, I bet I could hand either of you two a golf club, one with a head made of 431 stainless steel and the other 17-4 stainless steel and neither of you could tell me which was which after hitting a golf ball with both ? That's basically what you're trying to tell me you can discern hi ten from chromoly ? That a pound or two distributed over an object like a bike is discernable ? And this you want to compare to several grams of weight that imbalance a wheel ?

What I find even more comical is that because imbalance is termed "hop" (from 65'ers post) in the radial truing of a wheel it's discernable, yet a weight difference that has essentially the same effect is indiscernable ?

As for refiling the rims after every patch ? That makes no sense, you know what caused the imbalance, it's a patched tube. If it bugs you that much, fix the problem and replace the tube with one that doesn't have a patch. But if you took the time to isolate that the imbalance is in the rim, why not fix that problem there ? Somehow you have an issue with cause and effect again here ? And suggest something that doesn't make any sense. Since we're going there, patches are a temporary solution, cheaper and more convenient. I think anyone in the BF including yourself would much rather prefer to have an unpatched new tube if the choice were available at the time of the flat. Furthermore, if you also had your choice at the time of a flat, a brand new tire that hadn't been punctured and compromised is preferable too ?

They hunt in packs ?

dsh

I'd be willing to bet that, based on the "ride around the block" test, I'd have a much higher accuracy guessing chromo vs hi-ten frames than you'd have guessing shaved bead seat vs unshaved.

And no, a few grams of imbalance in a rim will not produce the same effect as a hop.

fuji86

See responses.

fuji86

I'd say we'd have the same probability, it's 50/50 in each case ? Hi ten or chromolly, shaved or unshaven ? We both might get lucky and guess right too ? With hi ten vs chromolly, many threads here @ BF show pics of a vintage bike, many have to go research it because they aren't quite sure. Then again, shaved or unshaven, every weld on a rim is shaved, has to be, just depends upon how meticulous it was done ? But you know what, I have complete faith and confidence that you can tell the difference between hi ten & chromoly.

seejohnbike

fuji, you seem to know much more about other things than you do bikes, which is fine. however, you keep making comparisons and parallels (like to car wheels, or golf clubs, or whatever) that are not always applicable.

with respect to golf clubs: I'm not a golfer. I've never been golfing aside from a few trips to the driving range with my dad when I was a kid. It's silly to expect me, or anyone else, to draw a comparison between bikes and golf clubs, seeing as how this isnt a golfing forum. However, with relative certainty, I can say I am a cyclist. I ride my bike just about every day, and I'd probably be able to tell if someone swapped my frame out for something else, and painted it to look like the original... If somebody golfed everyday, I'm sure they could tell the difference between clubs.

with respect to frames: it's not just the weight. Of course one may be a bit heavier than the other, but that's not the whole of the conversation. obviously, weight affects handling a bit, but even the characteristics of the metal/tubing dictate something about ride quality. Will the frame be flexy or stiff? Will it be smooth or jarring? Personally I've never truly understood how a frame could be both smooth and stiff, but if I had to guess, it would come down to the metal, and hell, maybe even the resonant frequency of the bike and/or tubing: a bike manufactured to allow small, rapid vibration, and absorb road buzz, but to dis-allow large vibration/flexing to maximize power transfer. I don't know if that is indeed the secret to a stiff yet smooth frame, but I do know that if the frame size, weight, and geo are the same, it's stuff like this that will make the difference between them.

with respect to your overall actions: there is a dissonance between that which you appear to take seriously about cycling, and that which you dont. Stating that you can't tell the difference between the ride characteristics of hi-ten vs chromoly, yet you can tell the difference between slightly out of true/imbalanced wheels is suspiciously puzzling. That you're willing to pick nits over the disadvantages of foot retention. That you maintain these lofty positions regarding performance when you've previously claimed (paraphrasing from the toe overlap thread) that you don't take cycling that seriously and have a tendency to ride around with your friends who have cruisers.

You sound a bit self deluded, like your priorities regarding cycling are a bit out of order, and that you don't fully understand what you're talking about. that's fine (i guess), as we all start somewhere, and even the most knowledgeable are still learning. but please recognize this, and come to the table eager to learn, or at least willing to admit you're OCD about some things, and that even if it's not what's "right," it's how you prefer it. In the meantime, you're just confusing the hell out of the rest of us.

edit/addition: oh, and with respect to telling the difference: yeah, it's 50/50 if it's one shot. If it's repeated several times with several different hi-ten vs chromoly bikes, then it's not just chance, it shows more and more that you truly know your stuff...

JesusBananas

Fuji, man, I used to think you were some kind of very subtle troll, but it seems like you are just one of those people who has to play devil's advocate for everything. There are so many threads where someone makes some innocent suggestion, and you make some kind of factually-questionable statement in response to it. Then the whole thread devolves into an argument between you and all the other posters.

I love playing devil's advocate myself, but certainly not at every conceivable opportunity just for the sake of it. That kind of behavior just gets tiring really quickly.

As I've said before, I don't care if you don't like clipless or u locks or chromo or carbon; people have preferences. But when you say that you prefer something because of Reason A, and people tell you that Reason A is flat out incorrect, you just don't seem to get it.

Example
1) "I shaved my wheels because it made me happier, and I feel that the ride is smoother." - Fine, cool, good for you. Thanks for sharing.
2) "I shaved my wheels because they were otherwise unbalanced, and now my ride is smoother." - You are making a statement as though it were a fact. But it's not a fact. It's your opinion. These are two different things.

Also, this might just be a personal pet peeve (so apologies for that), but I find the persistent multi-posting kind of annoying.

adriano 

JesusBananas

ftfy