TejanoTrackie 

I wish you had at least contacted bd about this. How else are they going to become aware of serious problems with their products. This is not a case of normal online buying issues such as shipping the wrong size or color, it is a very serious quality defect that needs immediate attention. Did you check to see what size seatpost they supplied? If they used a 26.8mm seatpost, then they totally screwed up on your bike as well, because the seatube ID is 27.2mm on that frame. First there were the bad forks on the Kilo TTs, and now there is this. What's next? Although things have worked out in my case with my 2 bd bikes, I don't think I can recommend them to others any longer.

Scrodzilla

I'm with you TT. I had no problems with my Kilo but BD quality control & customer service seems to on a downward spiral as of late.

soyboy

i kinda hate to stand up for a company i have nothing to do with, aside from my bike's frame) but they were really great with replacing the forks for anyone that had the issue with the kilo fork(myself included) i kinda refuse to believe that they sent you a 26.8 seatpost originally, sorry, pics or it didn't happen, this company certainly deals in volume and discount but i really felt their customer service was top notch in my experience

kyselad

So you note they had a QC issue with forks that they (admirably) helped to resolve, yet you refuse to believe they have a QC issue with spec'ing the bike with a seat post diameter that they continue to list incorrectly on their website?

To the OP, the very fact that they indicate you're the only one to have this problem twice indicates to me they've probably seen this problem at least once with other customers fairly often. Without seeing your initial correspondence, it's hard to be sure how clearly you stated the issue, but you need to make it clear that the bike originally had the wrong diameter seat post and that you simply swapped in a new post of the same, incorrect diameter. It couldn't hurt to mention that the info on the website is still wrong, as they really need to get that resolved. Running too small a seat post is patently consistent with the damage you've repeatedly encountered, and they're responsible for repeatedly including the wrong post. It isn't obvious from their reply that BD fully understands they supplied the wrong post diameter.

soyboy

i'm not refusing to believe they have a QC problem, i'm saying it's the polarity of my experience with their customer service that makes me question his claims, i know how easy it can be to exagerate things when you're frustrated, perhaps he only thought he had checked the seatpost for a size stamp?

ordering a bike off of the internet isn't for everyone, if you don't know a lot about them it's easy to make a mistake and you should probably get something from a shop or find a reliable shop to take it too, it's fairly easy to bash someone on the internet, it's not as easy to assemble, maintain and repair a bicycle

Scrodzilla

It's pretty easy to make up for terrible QC by sending someone a free something or other when a problem arises. The point is that the problem shouldn't exist in the first place - especially for a company that moves as many bike as BD.

bikesdirect_com

Hi
I have been off the site for months; mainly due to having 90 year old parents that have been in the ER and in Hospital too many times to count in the last six months. Add to that design of about 30 or 40 new models and it just eats up all your time.
I decided to go on today; as this is the first weekend in about 4 months I have not had a parent issue.
The case of the OP here brings up several issues that involve "what are the industry standards?" and "should we ever vary from them?".
First, the Kilo WT is made by UEC; one of the top makers in the industry; Do they ever make mistakes or have defects? Sure ~ Are they insanely rare? Yes -- The chance of two to the same person is so low that I am more worried about being hit by an asteroid.
Problem here is clearly related to the seat post.
However, when this first occurred I may have contributed. My people ask for the entire bike to be sent back for evaluation of defect claim. This is standard industry procedure. I know of no bike shop that evaluates a frame warranty claim without seeing the product. Actually; it is not possible to pass judgment on such a claim without seeing the entire bike.
In this case the OP did not want to send the bike in to be evaluated. Even after I explained to him that even though warranty does not cover labor BUT that we always cover it for free AND that even if his situation was not a defect I would still do labor for free. OP just did not want bike to come back to us. So I decided to wave the standard policy and send him a frame. OP confirmed that he was ‘experienced’ with bikes and that he was expert enough to do a frame swap if he was given a free frame. So I sent him one [even though I was sure close inspection would have shown this was not a defect]
Of course, an expert bike mechanic would check seat post size before installing. I think most would agree with that. And it appears clear to me that the aftermarket post put in the second frame is the wrong size.
On this latest issue: my service people did what every shop in the USA would do; ask for the bike to be presented so the ‘defect’ could be evaluated. So the ‘cycle’ starts again. The OP sends an email saying it is not convenient to send the bike back so we can evaluate it and decide what created the issue. So I ask service center for his number and best time to call; and I have called several times and left messages. I have still not heard from him.
My decision to try to save the customer time & money by sending a new frame for free was misguided; although I think my heart was in the right place. If I had the first bike in our shop to start with [a] the true reason for the first issue would be clear and [b] the second issue would have never happened. My guess is that everyone understands that.
Next issue is specs:
Sometimes we have mistakes on our site – this is even covered in our FAQ.
“Q: I found an error on the site (Price/spec/etc)
A: If an error is noticed prior to placing an order, we appreciate the information and will make the correction. This site is maintained and created by humans and we sometimes err. We may even send you a surprise gift if you were the first to notice the error or if the error was especially funny.
In the bicycle industry, suppliers and factories sometimes change specs without notice and state that they are "subject to change without notice". This is because bicycles are made from hundreds of parts which come from dozens of vendors. Parts are sometimes updated to the most current production generation/iteration one gets better or more current parts or a comparable part. For example, 12-25 instead of 11-25T cassette or 52T chainring instead of 53T ring. “

Why do bike brand have specs that are “subject to change without notice”? The reason is simple; bike specs are written; bikes are ordered; components are then ordered; and sometimes the specs cannot be delivered in a timely manner or something that works better becomes available. Sometimes spec says hub X and that hub can not be made in time and hub y is available – so that is used. Or maybe a little change is made as ‘running change’ that brand feels will improve the bike.
A bike can easily be in any dealer’s stock that has somewhat different specs; in fact this happens a lot. And in some cases the dealer does not even know it.
Of course, items like BB, headset, seatpost, etc that can be different from bike to bike would need to be checked before doing a complete bike rebuild. Spotting such items is part of being qualified to rebuild bikes and part of the reason we prefer to do such rebuilds ourselves.
We provide the best online prices and service I know of. But in this case I went overboard by sending a free frame instead of requiring that the bike be presented. I could have pushed harder to get the bike back so we could have handled it in our shop.

Roland Owens

First, I'd love to see pics of the damage with the OP's seatpost installed. I own a WT and if I tried to install a 26.8 post it would be obvious that it was the wrong size. I've got a little over 2700 miles on mine and other than needing to replace the headset it's been flawless. I did replace my hub bearings but that was more about me being anal before heading off to ride the STP than an actual problem.

Second, just to back up what Mike said, if you're going to work on your own bike a set of calipers are a must for your toolbox. Here's the best $14 bucks you'll ever spend for your bike (and other stuff):

https://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2306

I never trust specs that are on a web page, or even stamped on a cheap part, whether it's my $439 WT or the $2500 Cannondale Tandem I just bought. I wish I still had my original seatpost to see if it was stamped.

Roland

kyselad

So was the bike shipped with the wrong post? If so, that's a problem with BD. Yes, a mechanic should catch that on installation, but more importantly, BD should catch that before the parts go out the door. The disclaimer on the site has to do with (understandably) varying specs, but this issue has to do with supplying matched parts, and I don't see how BD is in any way exempted from that responsibility. I agree sending the whole bike back should have made the issue clear, but the issue still originates with BD, no?

Does it bother anyone else that, even as I write this, the website still lists a 26.8 mm seat post diameter?

bw286

wow, dealing with mike himself is not a fun time. the man is an *******. he continually raised his voice to me, as well as interrupting me when i tried to make my point. he also continually derided me for not being a good enough mechanic, as well as comparing his business favorably to Trek and Specialized in terms of quality and customer service.
according to him, it is possible that my original frame was supplied with a 26.8 seatpost, which would have been appropriate for the frame. then, the manufacturer changed spec in the middle of the product run, and thusly the replacement frame that i was sent was speced for a 27.2 post.
my mistake was in assuming that they would either make this change clear to me or supply the bike with the correct post at the time they shipped it out.
also, what mike refused to admit is that their packing and shipping is sub-par at best. i have bought 2 bikes from bikesdirect,and each time they have been damaged in shipping, in a way that WAS NOT the fault of UPS.
the first time, my Kilo TT fork was smashed in on itself in such a way that it was impossible to put the front wheel in. Bikesdirect customer service suggested that i shove a wrench in there and bend it back.
the second time, with this Kilo WT frame, the box that it was packed in had huge holes in it and was basically held together with packing tape. it was also damaged AT BIKESDIRECT by the person who stripped the parts off of it. the frame was overclamped in a stand which crimped the seattube. so mike has no room to accuse anyone of not being a qualified mechanic, since he doesn't know what one looks like.
my issue with shipping a frame back to bikesdirect was 1), yes it is inconvenient for me but also 2) they did not offer to pay for the shipping and it would have come to 20% of the original bike to mail a frame back TWICE and 3) it was obvious to me that bikesdirect is not capable of shipping a bike from their warehouse to the customer without damaging it, so i didn't want to take that risk with my own parts and 4) whoever they have working on bikes is not experienced enough to use a simple bike stand without damaging a frame, so i didn't want them taking a headset or crankset off my bike.

my long conversation with mike ended with him saying, "maybe you just shouldn't do business with us ever again." which is a conclusion i had already arrived at long before.
at this point, i hung up the phone, after saying that i wish i had spent the extra money and gotten a Surly frame that would have worked from the start, and even if something had gone wrong, been able to talk to a real person over the phone immediately and then not been accused of being a poor mechanic and a problematic customer.
i hope bikesdirect is happy to lose another customer, mike certainly seemed like he enjoyed driving another potentially loyal consumer away from his door.

bikesdirect_com

I think you should not assume the the factory {UEC** supplied the original bike with a non-matching post. That could happen in any factory; but it is very unlikely. I have never seen the original post or frame; so I do not know what they were. Could one Kilo WT have a 26.8 and another have a 27.2 -- of course. But I think the original post matched the frame.

And the OP told me several things before I sent him free new frame [a] he was qualified to do the change and [b] he worked in bike shops.

I really think it was fair for me to assume he would check to see if the seat post, BB, headset, all fit the new frame he was sent. If he had told me he did not know how to properly do a frame swap; I would have insisted on getting the original one back; and we would have done the change over for free.

On the site: trust is: my web guy has not only been real busy but he also had a bike wreck and is at the doctor right now. I will have him change to show either no size on post or that it can be either. But the site did not cause an 'expert' mechanic to install the incorrect size seat post; IMHO

bikesdirect_com

After talking to the OP I was shocked

He took zero responsibility. He in fact told me that he worked in several bike shops and that standard procedure would be to install seat posts, BB, or headset on a new frame without checking with calipers to see if they fit. [strange I have been running shops for 30 years and all my guys check sizing before installing parts.]

OP also informed me quality from UEC was no good; packing from UEC was no good; and that other brands never change specs because they are done right. Again strange as this does not agree with anything I have seen in the last 30 years; and I know of noone in the industry that thinks badly of UEC [on QC or packing]

OP feels it is clearly anyone else fualt except his if he gets a new frame for free and then damages it by refusing to check if the parts he installs fit.

You can make your own call

tgscordv6

I have absolutely no problems with the Kilo frameset I purchased from Bikeisland, but it does seem like quality control went downhill lately.
Here is what I think of the situation from this thread.

1. OP should have sent the frameset back on his cost. That would be the right thing to do since BD already sent him a brand new frame. Internet purchases do not have the same benefits as purchasing from the LBS.
2. There has been reports that the Kilo WT did arrived with an incorrectly sized seatpost. It is VERY possible that the OP received one of those.
3. If BD is willing to not show the specs on the their bikes anymore, then you are pretty much admitting that your products are not consistent.
4. I don't think I have ever measure a frameset with a caliper before ordering and installing parts. I pretty much order corresponding parts the same day I purchase the frameset.

bw286

just got a great deal on a Surly Steamroller.
after this experience, i DO NOT want to be seen riding on any bikesdirect product or have anyone thing i support the company (though i would be happy to get a refund from them or even a damage free frame that i could sell on craigsist).

bw286

also, i DID send the first frame back to Bikesdirect, at my own cost.
the replacement frame they sent me was badly damaged due to poor packaging, which was not from the manufacturer, it was from their warehouse, as they had to strip the parts off an already built frame. the "FREE" frame that the sent was actually my third frame, which was a replacement for the badly damaged second replacement frame.

bikesdirect_com

interesting points

1 - I actually offered to cover return shipping; and free labor; defect or not [OP did not want us to get either frame back and I think I know why]
2 - I have not seen a report of a Kilo WT that showed up with a post that did not match the frame; maybe I missed it. But I have never seen it or I would have let factory know that at once
3 - We show specs on bikes; and also note that specs can change without warning; just as very other bike seller does --- this is the industry standard. Specs can & do change doing model years; part of the process that keeps bike prices as low as they are.
4 - I suggest that anyone who installs a new frame check to see the parts they have fix before they install them. Maybe I am too old school; but this has always been SOP in all quality bike shops

We use 6 factories; I do not think QC is down in any of them. In addition, brands in IBS use same factories as we do, and QC is the same for each factory on each brand they build [no way a factory would build one quality for Trek, a different quality for Specialized, and different quality for Mercie]

bw286

you never offered to cover return shipping. i have all of the emails and it was never offered. that would have changed my willingness to return the frame a great deal. don't make lies that i can easily refute.
what you did offer was to get me a "deal" for $40 to ship the first frame back to you. when i ended up shipping it back myself, it was actually less than that amount.

bikesdirect_com

maybe you did not understand me
that is exactly what I offered the first time I spoke with you

Since you have said right here "it was obvious to me that bikesdirect is not capable of shipping a bike from their warehouse to the customer without damaging it" and since hundreds of posters on BF have gotten bikes from us; I think the reader can come to their own conclusion

bw286

having me pay $40 to you to have a frame shipped when it actually cost me $35 is not "covering return shipping."
and since in my experience, 2 of the 2 bikesdirect products i have ordered have been damaged in shipping, you can see how i believe that you are incapable of shippign a bike without damaging it

Scrodzilla

DARTHVADER

cool story bro.

bumblebeetuna

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Gyeswho

I actually got a correctly sized post with my WT, BUT it wasn't cut to have a seat post compression slot I was so pissed, but decided to make my own using a dremel. Thankfully it worked. I feel the main flaw of the WT is that it doesn't come with a seatpost binder collar like the TT or Steamroller. I think my problem was a very rare one since it seems no one else had this issue. Should I have sent it back ?

Scrodzilla

I would have.

DARTHVADER

thats what bikesdirect calls quality control.