anyone else having problems with Kilo WT?
11-08-10, 05:07 PM
#51
Ths Hipstr Kills Masheenz
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okay everyone.
it's like this.
you want to buy a house. so you go house hunting...
you can walk into a super rich nice realtor's office that is well reputed and has great reviews. then you make an appointment and wait to see a really good realtor that you know has a good reputation and will get you a great house.
then you find a house that is everything you want and it's in great shape. you pay several inspectors and contractors to make sure everything is in working order and it's all quality construction and work.
then you buy the house for a market price that is comparable to other nice houses. you pay full price. or full price and then some, because everyone's so nice to deal with and you want to put a nice dinner on their tables.
IF THEN the house falls apart on you and you have to do a bunch of renovations or fixes, that's when you can get mad at the realtor, the contractors, the inspectors, and the sellers.
however, if you go to some foreclosure government auction and you have a contractor friend come along to 'inspect' the house and he says 'well it may need some work' and the house THEN falls over on you, who do you really have to blame?
bikes direct is like a low-budget nice homes realtor that finds and sells houses that are for the most part as nice as the nice houses in the neighborhood, but maybe the plumbing isn't checked very thoroughly or maybe it's not coded properly for the driveway or whatever. however, they sell houses at 40-70% the cost of prime estates and the aforementioned well reputed realtor offices...
YOU KNEW YOU WERE BUYING A BUDGET BIKE AND YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED THE PLUMBING.
or paid a plumber to assemble your bike, as suggested on the website.
if you do things smart, your bikesdirect bike can look like this:
and it will work flawlessly for three years and counting, and be every bit as good as any other bike made in the same taiwanese factories, minus the nice graphics or paint.
if, however, you expect ferrari service and product support from your kia spectra and the entry level salesman who sold it to you, go **** yourself.
bikesdirect is a bargain basement brand. it's their fault for forgetting to update the seatpost spec or forgetting to catch the production change in time. they made a mistake on a small portion of the WT's; it happens.
mike- you really should have made the return process easier for this guy. you probably didn't mean for the replacement frame to be damaged in shipping and i am not convinced that it was damaged before being handed off for shipment, but if he's waiting a month anyway you could have at least made sure you figured out the seatpost issue, since he did return the frame and you could have inspected it and asked 'why did it break here?" it was your product, and you should have been able to look into the issue deep enough to find that the seatpost wasn't spec'd right.
but bw283/op:
YOU BOUGHT A CHEAP BIKE THAT WAS HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS LESS THAN THE COMPETITION. Don't cry like a little ***** when the product isn't up to standards you may expect from a place that charges 10-200% more for the same product. And if the seatpost was really too small, any seasoned mechanic would have noticed it.
bikes direct recommends having seasoned mechanics assemble their bikes. did you forget that, or did you just overestimate your own skill level?
it's like this.
you want to buy a house. so you go house hunting...
you can walk into a super rich nice realtor's office that is well reputed and has great reviews. then you make an appointment and wait to see a really good realtor that you know has a good reputation and will get you a great house.
then you find a house that is everything you want and it's in great shape. you pay several inspectors and contractors to make sure everything is in working order and it's all quality construction and work.
then you buy the house for a market price that is comparable to other nice houses. you pay full price. or full price and then some, because everyone's so nice to deal with and you want to put a nice dinner on their tables.
IF THEN the house falls apart on you and you have to do a bunch of renovations or fixes, that's when you can get mad at the realtor, the contractors, the inspectors, and the sellers.
however, if you go to some foreclosure government auction and you have a contractor friend come along to 'inspect' the house and he says 'well it may need some work' and the house THEN falls over on you, who do you really have to blame?
bikes direct is like a low-budget nice homes realtor that finds and sells houses that are for the most part as nice as the nice houses in the neighborhood, but maybe the plumbing isn't checked very thoroughly or maybe it's not coded properly for the driveway or whatever. however, they sell houses at 40-70% the cost of prime estates and the aforementioned well reputed realtor offices...
YOU KNEW YOU WERE BUYING A BUDGET BIKE AND YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED THE PLUMBING.
or paid a plumber to assemble your bike, as suggested on the website.
if you do things smart, your bikesdirect bike can look like this:
and it will work flawlessly for three years and counting, and be every bit as good as any other bike made in the same taiwanese factories, minus the nice graphics or paint.
if, however, you expect ferrari service and product support from your kia spectra and the entry level salesman who sold it to you, go **** yourself.
bikesdirect is a bargain basement brand. it's their fault for forgetting to update the seatpost spec or forgetting to catch the production change in time. they made a mistake on a small portion of the WT's; it happens.
mike- you really should have made the return process easier for this guy. you probably didn't mean for the replacement frame to be damaged in shipping and i am not convinced that it was damaged before being handed off for shipment, but if he's waiting a month anyway you could have at least made sure you figured out the seatpost issue, since he did return the frame and you could have inspected it and asked 'why did it break here?" it was your product, and you should have been able to look into the issue deep enough to find that the seatpost wasn't spec'd right.
but bw283/op:
YOU BOUGHT A CHEAP BIKE THAT WAS HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS LESS THAN THE COMPETITION. Don't cry like a little ***** when the product isn't up to standards you may expect from a place that charges 10-200% more for the same product. And if the seatpost was really too small, any seasoned mechanic would have noticed it.
bikes direct recommends having seasoned mechanics assemble their bikes. did you forget that, or did you just overestimate your own skill level?
Last edited by cc700; 11-08-10 at 05:12 PM.
11-08-10, 05:24 PM
#52
Your cog is slipping.
11-08-10, 06:04 PM
#54
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According to Mike of bd, problems like this are less likely to happen than being hit by a meteor.
11-08-10, 06:14 PM
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Not taking any sides or anything, but wow, OP, you are an ass. If you were going to expect so fu**ing much from BD, you should've just went to your good ol' LBS instead of causing a havoc and attempting to ruin BD's reputation. Pathetic.
11-08-10, 08:18 PM
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No, what Mike said was that having two frames exhibit the exact same problem was highly unlikely. If I was Gyeswho I would have fixed the problem much as he did, asked BD for a $50 refund for my trouble, and chipped in another $50 and had the frame powdercoated to a color of my choice. Hell, I had a small scratch on the chainstay of my WT, sent a picture to BD and they sent me a $10 refund to by touchup paint.
11-08-10, 09:27 PM
#57
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No, what Mike said was that having two frames exhibit the exact same problem was highly unlikely. If I was Gyeswho I would have fixed the problem much as he did, asked BD for a $50 refund for my trouble, and chipped in another $50 and had the frame powdercoated to a color of my choice. Hell, I had a small scratch on the chainstay of my WT, sent a picture to BD and they sent me a $10 refund to by touchup paint.
11-08-10, 09:31 PM
#58
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they're not normal, but he does a good job managing customer expectations and they still do things like use what i believe to be an obviously ill fitting part, twice.
bikesdirect is at fault here, but assuming this is normal is not what he's asking from his customers. he gave the guy TWO warranty frames for the price of shipping the original back.
that's a pretty clear indication that something is going wrong on the customer's end.
bikesdirect is at fault here, but assuming this is normal is not what he's asking from his customers. he gave the guy TWO warranty frames for the price of shipping the original back.
that's a pretty clear indication that something is going wrong on the customer's end.
11-08-10, 09:35 PM
#59
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It sounds like both parties failed on this one. cc700 and TT have both summarized my thoughts.
11-08-10, 09:57 PM
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they're not normal, but he does a good job managing customer expectations and they still do things like use what i believe to be an obviously ill fitting part, twice.
bikesdirect is at fault here, but assuming this is normal is not what he's asking from his customers. he gave the guy TWO warranty frames for the price of shipping the original back.
that's a pretty clear indication that something is going wrong on the customer's end.
bikesdirect is at fault here, but assuming this is normal is not what he's asking from his customers. he gave the guy TWO warranty frames for the price of shipping the original back.
that's a pretty clear indication that something is going wrong on the customer's end.
and i got ONE warranty frame that was damaged on their end and in shipping that i never rode and then one in replacement for THAT which became damaged over a short period of time and that i am no longer riding.
11-08-10, 11:05 PM
#61
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11-09-10, 04:38 AM
#63
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you forgot to add the three months of waiting for an undamaged frame.
and i got ONE warranty frame that was damaged on their end and in shipping that i never rode and then one in replacement for THAT which became damaged over a short period of time and that i am no longer riding.
and i got ONE warranty frame that was damaged on their end and in shipping that i never rode and then one in replacement for THAT which became damaged over a short period of time and that i am no longer riding.
and you didn't answer my rhetorical question- you didn't actually have the bike assembled by a seasoned mechanic, as per bikesdirect's directions, did you?
11-09-10, 05:21 AM
#64
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Hi
I have been off the site for months; mainly due to having 90 year old parents that have been in the ER and in Hospital too many times to count in the last six months. Add to that design of about 30 or 40 new models and it just eats up all your time.
I decided to go on today; as this is the first weekend in about 4 months I have not had a parent issue.
The case of the OP here brings up several issues that involve "what are the industry standards?" and "should we ever vary from them?".
First, the Kilo WT is made by UEC; one of the top makers in the industry; Do they ever make mistakes or have defects? Sure ~ Are they insanely rare? Yes -- The chance of two to the same person is so low that I am more worried about being hit by an asteroid.
Problem here is clearly related to the seat post.
However, when this first occurred I may have contributed. My people ask for the entire bike to be sent back for evaluation of defect claim. This is standard industry procedure. I know of no bike shop that evaluates a frame warranty claim without seeing the product. Actually; it is not possible to pass judgment on such a claim without seeing the entire bike.
In this case the OP did not want to send the bike in to be evaluated. Even after I explained to him that even though warranty does not cover labor BUT that we always cover it for free AND that even if his situation was not a defect I would still do labor for free. OP just did not want bike to come back to us. So I decided to wave the standard policy and send him a frame. OP confirmed that he was ‘experienced’ with bikes and that he was expert enough to do a frame swap if he was given a free frame. So I sent him one [even though I was sure close inspection would have shown this was not a defect]
Of course, an expert bike mechanic would check seat post size before installing. I think most would agree with that. And it appears clear to me that the aftermarket post put in the second frame is the wrong size.
On this latest issue: my service people did what every shop in the USA would do; ask for the bike to be presented so the ‘defect’ could be evaluated. So the ‘cycle’ starts again. The OP sends an email saying it is not convenient to send the bike back so we can evaluate it and decide what created the issue. So I ask service center for his number and best time to call; and I have called several times and left messages. I have still not heard from him.
My decision to try to save the customer time & money by sending a new frame for free was misguided; although I think my heart was in the right place. If I had the first bike in our shop to start with [a] the true reason for the first issue would be clear and [b] the second issue would have never happened. My guess is that everyone understands that.
Next issue is specs:
Sometimes we have mistakes on our site – this is even covered in our FAQ.
“Q: I found an error on the site (Price/spec/etc)
A: If an error is noticed prior to placing an order, we appreciate the information and will make the correction. This site is maintained and created by humans and we sometimes err. We may even send you a surprise gift if you were the first to notice the error or if the error was especially funny.
In the bicycle industry, suppliers and factories sometimes change specs without notice and state that they are "subject to change without notice". This is because bicycles are made from hundreds of parts which come from dozens of vendors. Parts are sometimes updated to the most current production generation/iteration one gets better or more current parts or a comparable part. For example, 12-25 instead of 11-25T cassette or 52T chainring instead of 53T ring. “
Why do bike brand have specs that are “subject to change without notice”? The reason is simple; bike specs are written; bikes are ordered; components are then ordered; and sometimes the specs cannot be delivered in a timely manner or something that works better becomes available. Sometimes spec says hub X and that hub can not be made in time and hub y is available – so that is used. Or maybe a little change is made as ‘running change’ that brand feels will improve the bike.
A bike can easily be in any dealer’s stock that has somewhat different specs; in fact this happens a lot. And in some cases the dealer does not even know it.
Of course, items like BB, headset, seatpost, etc that can be different from bike to bike would need to be checked before doing a complete bike rebuild. Spotting such items is part of being qualified to rebuild bikes and part of the reason we prefer to do such rebuilds ourselves.
We provide the best online prices and service I know of. But in this case I went overboard by sending a free frame instead of requiring that the bike be presented. I could have pushed harder to get the bike back so we could have handled it in our shop.
I have been off the site for months; mainly due to having 90 year old parents that have been in the ER and in Hospital too many times to count in the last six months. Add to that design of about 30 or 40 new models and it just eats up all your time.
I decided to go on today; as this is the first weekend in about 4 months I have not had a parent issue.
The case of the OP here brings up several issues that involve "what are the industry standards?" and "should we ever vary from them?".
First, the Kilo WT is made by UEC; one of the top makers in the industry; Do they ever make mistakes or have defects? Sure ~ Are they insanely rare? Yes -- The chance of two to the same person is so low that I am more worried about being hit by an asteroid.
Problem here is clearly related to the seat post.
However, when this first occurred I may have contributed. My people ask for the entire bike to be sent back for evaluation of defect claim. This is standard industry procedure. I know of no bike shop that evaluates a frame warranty claim without seeing the product. Actually; it is not possible to pass judgment on such a claim without seeing the entire bike.
In this case the OP did not want to send the bike in to be evaluated. Even after I explained to him that even though warranty does not cover labor BUT that we always cover it for free AND that even if his situation was not a defect I would still do labor for free. OP just did not want bike to come back to us. So I decided to wave the standard policy and send him a frame. OP confirmed that he was ‘experienced’ with bikes and that he was expert enough to do a frame swap if he was given a free frame. So I sent him one [even though I was sure close inspection would have shown this was not a defect]
Of course, an expert bike mechanic would check seat post size before installing. I think most would agree with that. And it appears clear to me that the aftermarket post put in the second frame is the wrong size.
On this latest issue: my service people did what every shop in the USA would do; ask for the bike to be presented so the ‘defect’ could be evaluated. So the ‘cycle’ starts again. The OP sends an email saying it is not convenient to send the bike back so we can evaluate it and decide what created the issue. So I ask service center for his number and best time to call; and I have called several times and left messages. I have still not heard from him.
My decision to try to save the customer time & money by sending a new frame for free was misguided; although I think my heart was in the right place. If I had the first bike in our shop to start with [a] the true reason for the first issue would be clear and [b] the second issue would have never happened. My guess is that everyone understands that.
Next issue is specs:
Sometimes we have mistakes on our site – this is even covered in our FAQ.
“Q: I found an error on the site (Price/spec/etc)
A: If an error is noticed prior to placing an order, we appreciate the information and will make the correction. This site is maintained and created by humans and we sometimes err. We may even send you a surprise gift if you were the first to notice the error or if the error was especially funny.
In the bicycle industry, suppliers and factories sometimes change specs without notice and state that they are "subject to change without notice". This is because bicycles are made from hundreds of parts which come from dozens of vendors. Parts are sometimes updated to the most current production generation/iteration one gets better or more current parts or a comparable part. For example, 12-25 instead of 11-25T cassette or 52T chainring instead of 53T ring. “
Why do bike brand have specs that are “subject to change without notice”? The reason is simple; bike specs are written; bikes are ordered; components are then ordered; and sometimes the specs cannot be delivered in a timely manner or something that works better becomes available. Sometimes spec says hub X and that hub can not be made in time and hub y is available – so that is used. Or maybe a little change is made as ‘running change’ that brand feels will improve the bike.
A bike can easily be in any dealer’s stock that has somewhat different specs; in fact this happens a lot. And in some cases the dealer does not even know it.
Of course, items like BB, headset, seatpost, etc that can be different from bike to bike would need to be checked before doing a complete bike rebuild. Spotting such items is part of being qualified to rebuild bikes and part of the reason we prefer to do such rebuilds ourselves.
We provide the best online prices and service I know of. But in this case I went overboard by sending a free frame instead of requiring that the bike be presented. I could have pushed harder to get the bike back so we could have handled it in our shop.
Again you are not correct. TREK had replaced 2 KLEIN frames for me with just high quality pics of the damage.
Because my wife's Specialized was purchased at my LBS and sold there, they could see the damage right there and send a new frame. One advantage for buying at the LBS.
SCOTT also handled a claim I had without seeing the frame. Yes, many companies ask to see the frame and PAY to have it sent and received. But many are doing site unseen replacements as well now.
11-09-10, 05:28 AM
#66
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Roland, I respect your opinions, however in this case you seem to miss the point. The problem in the OP is not a defect in the frame, but a problem caused by an incorrectly sized part (seatpost) being supplied by the OEM, and compounded when the OP replaced it with another incorrectly sized part. Furthermore, this problem was reported not once, but twice (see post #25), so it is not a statistically rare event such as being hit by a meteor. As to the problem described by Gyeswho, I disagree with you that the customer should have to modify a frame in this way to make it right. I had to cold set the rear triangle of my Kilo WT frame because the dropout spacing was off by almost 5mm, making it very difficult to install the rear wheel and get proper chain tension. Although I did it right and left no marks, in hindsight I should have just returned the danged thing. Furthermore, bd's many spec errors have cost me $$ when I bought the wrong size part based on their info. They spec the stem / bar at 26.0mm, but in fact mine were 25.4mm. I almost made the same type of mistake with the seatpost (26.8mm instead of 27.2mm), but fortunately read a post of yours explaining that it was in fact 27.2mm. And yes, there were a number of other problems with the bike, such as a stripped seat binder bolt and paint flaws and / or damage, which I simply accepted as the price of buying a cheap product. So, really, I have no personal axe to grind with bd on the bikes I bought from them, but it really pisses me off when I read some long pr diatribe from Mr. Mike about how wonderful and perfect and great his bikes are and how we should all just be grateful that they are such great deals and just accept all the quality flaws as normal.
But here is where I think we disagree. When the OP got the undamaged replacement frame, it should have been obvious the seatpost was the wrong size for that frame. With a 0.4 mm difference that seatpost would have been rattling around in there pretty good, and the clamp would have had to been way overtightened. I think most of us who have been working on bikes for a long time would have known something was wrong.
The bottom line in all of this is that when you buy from BD you are the bike shop and must deal with any issues. That's where the $$ savings are. When I got my WT I had a slightly bent front fork dropout...I just dealt with it myself as would any bike shop with a slightly bent steel fork dropout. As I mentioned above, I just bought a $2500 Cannondale tandem from a bike shop in Richmond, VA that has been around forever. The setup problems on that bike with the brakes were amazing (the whole brifters, v-brakes, travel agents thing) but I just fixed it myself because I knew it was right. I do hope the OP gets the bike he wants...I really love my WT and have a blast on it.
Anyway, just my take on it.
11-09-10, 06:17 AM
#67
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ACTUALLY, no i didn't forget that part. it takes time to fix problems. jesus, there really are no ends to your expectations, are there?
and you didn't answer my rhetorical question- you didn't actually have the bike assembled by a seasoned mechanic, as per bikesdirect's directions, did you?
and you didn't answer my rhetorical question- you didn't actually have the bike assembled by a seasoned mechanic, as per bikesdirect's directions, did you?
but, i've worked at shops and coops for 5 years now.
when i put the post in, it did slide in easliy, but it didn't "rattle around." when i actually measured the seat tube inner diameter with one of the slide in gauges, it went to 27.0. i did try a 27.2 post at one point but it seemed too tight to go in.
11-09-10, 06:56 AM
#68
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i don't answer rhetorical questions as a rule.
but, i've worked at shops and coops for 5 years now.
when i put the post in, it did slide in easliy, but it didn't "rattle around." when i actually measured the seat tube inner diameter with one of the slide in gauges, it went to 27.0. i did try a 27.2 post at one point but it seemed too tight to go in.
but, i've worked at shops and coops for 5 years now.
when i put the post in, it did slide in easliy, but it didn't "rattle around." when i actually measured the seat tube inner diameter with one of the slide in gauges, it went to 27.0. i did try a 27.2 post at one point but it seemed too tight to go in.
Stuff happens!!
11-09-10, 09:03 AM
#69
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if you read carefully it sounds like it wasn't sent with the wrong seatpost originally but that the production size changed between him getting his first frame and his third frame, back to the theory of too little seatpost inserted in the first frame?
11-09-10, 10:56 AM
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Still sounds like poor qc to me. In as much as all of you are saying "Its a BD bike, expect problems and to have to troubleshoot it for the price" BD's site has scads of stuff touting how problem-free and easy their bikes are too assemble. All their instructions page offers is a final caveat for having a shop tune and make final adjustments. Since Mike is comparing his QC favorably to Trek, I really don't see them keeping the wrong specs on their site for months and months (I can't be the first to have seen this posted about a while back on BF) much less shipping the wrong size seat post with their bike.
11-09-10, 11:08 AM
#71
Your cog is slipping.
SSFG: The Rise and Fall of Bikes Direct.
11-09-10, 11:12 AM
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i'm not saying they don't make mistakes but he's making a fairly provable accusation and has refused to show any proof,
pictures of the seatpost he claims to have received in the wrong size would show that they had sent him the wrong size for the frame, i'm saying i think he originally had the right sized seat post but didn't have enough inserted and cracked his frame, realizing the mistake he bought a new longer seatpost for his new frame based on a size he got off their website and that this wrong sized post caused the second cracks of the same type, both times would be user error and bikes direct has replaced the frame once already
pictures of the seatpost he claims to have received in the wrong size would show that they had sent him the wrong size for the frame, i'm saying i think he originally had the right sized seat post but didn't have enough inserted and cracked his frame, realizing the mistake he bought a new longer seatpost for his new frame based on a size he got off their website and that this wrong sized post caused the second cracks of the same type, both times would be user error and bikes direct has replaced the frame once already
11-09-10, 11:36 AM
#73
tarck as ****
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i'm not saying they don't make mistakes but he's making a fairly provable accusation and has refused to show any proof,
pictures of the seatpost he claims to have received in the wrong size would show that they had sent him the wrong size for the frame, i'm saying i think he originally had the right sized seat post but didn't have enough inserted and cracked his frame, realizing the mistake he bought a new longer seatpost for his new frame based on a size he got off their website and that this wrong sized post caused the second cracks of the same type, both times would be user error and bikes direct has replaced the frame once already
pictures of the seatpost he claims to have received in the wrong size would show that they had sent him the wrong size for the frame, i'm saying i think he originally had the right sized seat post but didn't have enough inserted and cracked his frame, realizing the mistake he bought a new longer seatpost for his new frame based on a size he got off their website and that this wrong sized post caused the second cracks of the same type, both times would be user error and bikes direct has replaced the frame once already
11-09-10, 12:24 PM
#74
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i'm not trying to pick on you, i'm just saying if you accuse the first problem to be from an undersized seatpost you should show the undersized seatpost, or have sent it back with the frame, it sounds like you've been difficult to deal with and asking them to loan you a little extra trust each step of the way and then you turn around and repay that by bashing them on the internet, you'll find yourself shortly unwelcome in any local shop if you keep this martyr thing going
11-09-10, 03:12 PM
#75
tarck as ****
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no local shop would have treated me the way mike did on the phone. at least no good shop from which i had bought 2 bikes and a number of parts.
the undersized seatpost was never an issue until the third kilo frame started to break, which is when i realized that that was what the issue was. they never asked me to send the undersized post back with the frame because they never offered to do anything about the final broken frame. mike instead decided to argue with and berate me over the phone.
i can't wait for bulk trash pick-up day so i can put another bikesdirect product in the place it belonged from the very beginning
the undersized seatpost was never an issue until the third kilo frame started to break, which is when i realized that that was what the issue was. they never asked me to send the undersized post back with the frame because they never offered to do anything about the final broken frame. mike instead decided to argue with and berate me over the phone.
i can't wait for bulk trash pick-up day so i can put another bikesdirect product in the place it belonged from the very beginning