amor fati

So, I had a near death experience today with a car turning left which has prompted me to definitely follow through with an idea I've had in the back of my mind for awhile. I was in the right hand lane keeping pace with a truck with a large profile for a couple blocks. Just before i reached the next intersection the truck sped up leaving a guy that wanted to turn left unable to see me just as he was moving into the turn. I had a moment or two to think about what I was going to do and as I was riding my keirin track bike at speed on slightly downward sloping, freshly wetted pavement I knew my only option was to swerve and pedal through the situation. This proved to be the right course of action in this case (or maybe the angels just held the car back for me for a moment) but I really would have liked to have at least had the option of braking as well.

(For dry pavement, I think Mr. Bike Snob put it best when, in reference to fixed gear riding, he said "Riding brakeless IS more dangerous, but only SLIGHTLY more dangerous". However, its been quite rainy lately and I've been thinking that riding brakeless in the rain is, at best, impractical (one must be excessively vigilante and slow) and at worst, stupidly reckless.)

So, since it looks like it's going to be a wet winter, what I'd like to do is build up a rain bike with a track frame and some sort of fork which will accommodate a disc brake. I don't know much about disc brakes but what I gather is that you can't use any old track or road fork. Any suggestions, or pictures of this kind of setup would be greatly appreciated (I know I saw a really good one once on the internet but I can't seem to find it again). A fork with something close to track fork rake would be ideal. The lighter the better, too. And, yes, I'm familiar with the other options (keirin brakes, fork drilling, etc.) but since this setup is specifically for wet weather, and because, frankly, it will look cool, I'd like to go with the disc brake.

Squirrelli

Glad to hear you didn't get swiped by the truck.

I find front braking really scary in slippery condition, especially when it's icy or really really wet. Locking up the front wheel by braking will most likely end in a nasty spill, whereas modulating your speed by rear braking/skip stop is more controllable when the road condition is not dry.

If you want to set up your kierin bike with a disc brake, you should measure your fork's axle to crown length and your rake.

Gyeswho

I also agree that riding in the rain brakeless isn't the best option (I've done it before and hated it, when it's dry it's much easier). Now I see brakes are a very useful thing even if you don't use them often.

I use a Dimension Cross Disc fork on my Crosscheck (which is fixed) with an Avid BB7 road disc brake. Very useful and don't have any of that sliding rim sydrome alu rim brakes seem to have in the rain. It's modulation is also pretty smooth compared to a regular brake. Get your fork measured on the bike you intend to use and compare it to the forks they have out there (also be sure to get a similar axle to crown length fork since it's not only about rake): Kona, Nashbar, and Dimension have some of the cheapest (but heaviest) options.

FastJake

I know you're aware of this, but I must say it anyway. A proper rim brake will be adequate to lock up the front wheel on wet pavement, or lift the rear wheel on dry pavement. You don't need a disc brake.

If you want to run a disc brake, you will need a new front wheel, a fork with disc tabs, and (duh) the brake itself.

cc700

i don't know if i've ever seen a 1" disc fork.

Squirrelli

I agree.

You'd be most likely on the ground when you lock up your front wheel when wet. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be front braking but I think you need to find the perfect balance of controlling speed with back legs and adequate front braking.

Disc brakes will not be affected by the elements or by the road grim/slush/salt/stuff that the wheel kicks up.

Gyeswho

correct. He speaks the truth.

Squirrelli

I actually found one, made by Dimension of course.

https://www.bikeman.com/FK1268.html

evangelinegale

this thing is badass

bleedingapple

Of al my crashes (and Ive had many) this was never one of them. I think you need to be doing way too many things wrong if you can pull this off. Sorry Vix if you have done this, . I personally think brakeless is dumb and see no reason for it than wanting "cool" points. Though it is not as dumb as brakeless with no foot retention and or running 80+ GI and thus needing to take public transit because you A. cant ride down the hills safely and B. cant ride up because basic logic escapes you. mind you I have seen this twice in as many days...

/end rant.

I support the disk front, I will be doing the same with my crosscheck for my winter rider.

ismellfish2

I second that emotion- totally sweet.

kyselad

Locking up the front tire can be disastrous -- instant loss of control, and yes, that's from experience. If the brake is really there just for slick conditions, that's fine, but it's important to know how best to deploy it. I agree, however, that a rim brake is probably going to be more than adequate even in wet conditions. Serious snow and ice might be different, but even then, for a fg bike on the street with relatively little load, the disc is probably overkill. If you want real modulation, put on front and rear brakes. You don't need to use them when you don't want them, and you'll be glad they're there when you really need them.

TejanoTrackie 

I think the issue is not the particular type of braking setup that is best for low traction situations, but the simple realization that it takes a much greater distance to stop under those conditions. I used to live in southern Michigan, where not only were the roads slick in the winter with ice and snow, but also heavily laden with corrosive salt that rapidly caused brake cables to seize in their housings. As such, my winter trainer was a FG beater road conversion with low 60-65 gi gearing, no brakes and good foot retention. I also used fat CX tubulars with low pressures. I rode quite slowly on that bike, especially in slippery stretches, and would even unclip on really icy sections.

Until someone invents a viable ABS system for front brakes on bicycles, as has been done for motorcycles, hard braking for bicycles in low traction situations is simply not an option.

Kayce

Long before ABS systems were created for cars people knew how to "pump" the brakes in order to stop properly in lower traction situations. A similar thing has to be done manually with bike brakes. No one will ever create ABS for bikes, its unfeasible, heavy, and unnecessary.

TejanoTrackie 

Pumping the brakes on a car in low traction sitations does NOT allow you to stop nearly as quickly as in good traction conditions. It merely allows you to stop in some finite distance as opposed to locking the wheels and not stopping at all. It also allows you to maintain steering control, which is completely lost when the wheels are locked. ABS dramatically increased the braking capability of cars in low traction conditions, as it can "pump" the brakes much faster than a human operator. The consequences of locking the front wheels on a 4 wheeled vehicle are not nearly as catastrophic as they are on a 2 wheeled vehicle. I have indeed saved myself from wrecking on my motorcycle by immediately releasing the front brake when the front wheel got crossed up due to sliding, but then I also stopped slowing down, so if I'd needed at that moment to stop short I'd have been sol.

As for your assertion that ABS for bicycles is unfeasible, I think you are incorrect. We already have viable hydraulic brake systems for bicycles, and miniaturized electronics such as used on the Shimano DA2 shifting system suggests otherwise.

tashi

Increased power isn't really a useful thing for road bike brakes, they're plenty powerful enough to lock up the front wheel (which is a bad thing to do).

The main advantages of disks on the road, in the wet, would be the reduced response time (powerful braking starts when the pads contact the disk, avoiding the lag involved when water/dirt is scraped from the rim with a rim brake) and better modulation of the power, allowing you to apply the appropriate amount of braking power (avoiding wheel lock-up etc.) for the situation. The increased power of a disk brake merely lets you do these things with less force at the lever, which can be a nice thing if you're using it a lot.

Dylansbob 

I used a Civia disc fork on my 3spd fixed. Axle-to-crown is 395mm, 45mm rake. Arguably the same weight as the P2 I used to have on my Pompino, but a much nicer fork. Hayes direct mount and integrated cable/hose guides. I'm a wuss and often would drag the front brake on long downhill before I've had my coffee.

Bat56

What a coincidence. I just ordered an avid bb7 for my front. I use a Paul moto bmx up there but I will probably move that to the back for emergencies.

I ride a 26" mtn frame, so I can't help with your equipment question. I will say that I always want brakes. I get by just fine with a front, but I'm thinking I'll double up for the winter.

amor fati

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions. I definitely don't want to throw myself over the bars so I realize I'd have to practice with the front disc before I used it in an emergency. I don't really want to drill either of my track forks so since I'd be getting another fork anyway I figure I might as well try one that affords disc brakes. I always try to turn necessity into a learning experience when it comes to bikes. I also like the idea of how efficiently disc brakes work in crap conditions. Although, to be honest, I will never have to deal with ice or snow where I live.
I would like to do what Tejanotrackie suggests and just run a super easy ratio with fat tires and ride slowly but there are certain sections of my commute that require keeping up with 25 mph traffic as there is no bikelane and the shoulder of the road is crappy and really sketchy when wet. There are literally no alternatives to this route and this is where my close call occurred. I could ride on the sidewalk but I don't want to do that under any conditions. So I need something that is going to stop me effectively going ~20mph.

Here is a one inch disc fork, but it's not threaded.
https://www.bti-usa.com/public/category/FK/FKRL/VC

Here is the bike I mentioned earlier which looked really well set up (the green Broakland):
https://www.bikeworldnews.com/2009/03...ght-broakland/

and here:
https://www.pdxfixed.com/discussion/86/39/bike-porn/
(I'm not into barspins but that brake cable through the headset set up is dope)

This is interesting:
https://urbanvelo.org/montano-velo-fi...-disc-adapter/

There was also another guy who brazed on a disc mount on his fork but I can't find the link again. Anyway, it seems like not such a good idea to do to a road/track fork anyway since they're not reinforced properly for this.

Thinking about also maybe just making a 700c wheel with a coaster brake hub and using some bigger tires and adding the front disc later when I've got it all figured out.

LupinIII

don't see the point, a dual pivot has plenty of power to send you over the bars or lock up the front wheel. I like my discs on my 29er, but that bike is a lot heavier.

If you're going through all this trouble you better be running a hydro.

kyselad

Again, disc seems like overkill, esp if you're only walking about water, but it's obviously your choice. Regardless, going over the bars isn't the issue here; it's an over-hyped problem all around, but it's essentially irrelevant in wet conditions where your tire will slide before you endo. And when your front tire slides, especially in the rain, look out.