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-   -   '80s Guerciotti Pista: Bottom bracket help?!? (http://www.bikeforums.net/singlespeed-fixed-gear/939554-80s-guerciotti-pista-bottom-bracket-help.html)

fischer, max 03-22-14 07:46 PM

'80s Guerciotti Pista: Bottom bracket help?!?
 
I recently was gifted a very minimally ridden Guerciotti track bike that I've started to build up, but I ran into a real snag today with the bottom bracket. I had ordered a new Record Pista crankset/bottom bracket, but when I put the crank arms on, the spindle was nowhere near long enough, and the non-driveside crank was actually hitting the chainstay. The spindle length is 111mm, but it looks like it'd need to be at least 117 to get the crank arms spinning freely.

I think the problem is that the chainstays are huge. Way bigger than I've ever seen on an old track frame like this. Have any of you run into this problem before?

TejanoTrackie 03-22-14 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischer, max (Post 16602260)
I recently was gifted a very minimally ridden Guerciotti track bike that I've started to build up, but I ran into a real snag today with the bottom bracket. I had ordered a new Record Pista crankset/bottom bracket, but when I put the crank arms on, the spindle was nowhere near long enough, and the non-driveside crank was actually hitting the chainstay. The spindle length is 111mm, but it looks like it'd need to be at least 117 to get the crank arms spinning freely.

I think the problem is that the chainstays are huge. Way bigger than I've ever seen on an old track frame like this. Have any of you run into this problem before?

What is the frame's bottom bracket width ? Italian BB's of that era are normally 70mm wide, whereas most frames today are 68mm.

fischer, max 03-22-14 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie (Post 16602283)
What is the frame's bottom bracket width ? Italian BB's of that era are normally 70mm wide, whereas most frames today are 68mm.

I don't have a ton of experience dealing with bottom brackets, so I might ask a few dopey questions, but aren't all Italian-threaded bottom brackets 70mm? The BB shell and BB I have are both definitely Italian-threaded, the Campy BB is definitely 70mm and it fits the frame just right, so is it fair to assume the frame's BB shell is 70mm too?

I left the frame at my LBS this evening so I can't measure it at the moment.

TejanoTrackie 03-22-14 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischer, max (Post 16602400)
I don't have a ton of experience dealing with bottom brackets, so I might ask a few dopey questions, but aren't all Italian-threaded bottom brackets 70mm? The BB shell and BB I have are both definitely Italian-threaded, the Campy BB is definitely 70mm and it fits the frame just right, so is it fair to assume the frame's BB shell is 70mm too?

I left the frame at my LBS this evening so I can't measure it at the moment.

Well, in that case the only possibility would be a mismatch of the crankset and the bottom bracket spindle. How long are the crank arms ?

fischer, max 03-22-14 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie (Post 16602435)
Well, in that case the only possibility would be a mismatch of the crankset and the bottom bracket spindle. How long are the crank arms ?

They're 165mm crank arms. I measured the spindle length earlier, and it's 111mm, and this stuff is all from the same (current) Campy Pista group.

Scrodzilla 03-22-14 09:40 PM

Get the Italian-threaded version of this.

fischer, max 03-22-14 09:41 PM

Doesn't that have the exact same 111mm spindle length as what I already have?

TejanoTrackie 03-22-14 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischer, max (Post 16602480)
They're 165mm crank arms. I measured the spindle length earlier, and it's 111mm, and this stuff is all from the same (current) Campy Pista group.

Well, sorry, but I don't have any idea why it won't work. Certainly, it's not the cranks being too long. It seems like you've spec'd it out correctly. Maybe, you can get some help on the frame in the C&V forum.

fischer, max 03-22-14 09:46 PM

No problem, thanks for trying to help. I really think the cranks/bb would be 100% fine if not for the giantass chainstays.

Scrodzilla 03-22-14 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischer, max (Post 16602506)
Doesn't that have the exact same 111mm spindle length as what I already have?

Apologies, I misread your original post.

The crankset you have calls for a 111mm spindle for a proper chain line. Adding 6mm to that for clearance sake may not be the right thing to do.

fischer, max 03-22-14 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrodzilla (Post 16602533)
Apologies, I misread your original post.

The crankset you have calls for a 111mm spindle for a proper chain line. Adding 6mm to that for clearance sake may not be the right thing to do.

Hm. Well, does any alternative solution jump to mind? I mean, the bike has been built and ridden in the past, so something must work, right?

hueyhoolihan 03-23-14 04:29 AM

standards as far as spyder dishing are concerned are rarely discussed, probably because they seldom rear their ugly heads. this may be one of those rare cases when looking a gift(ed) horse in the mouth may have been worth the trouble. :)

cranks designed for MTBs, with their wide chainstays designed for wide tires, have a lot of sypder dishing and many road crank arms simply will not clear an MTB's chainstays unless a wider BB is used. same holds true between road and track frames and cranks.

but it seems in your case, if i understand your problem, that a modern track crank is not clearing the chainstays on your vintage track frame, which is unusual. you might try a road crank if you have one around, just to see how to approach this problem. of course the simple answer is to put on a wider BB, but aesthetic issues aside, chainline could be seriously compromised. it's also possible, but unlikely, that the frame is not really a track frame but a road frame with track ends.

in any case if you find a crank that works, you may then be looking at chain-line problems.

the advice to post something in C&V may prove fruitful.

it should also be noted that many vintage BB's were asymmetrical as regards bearing to end of spindle distance, but before i invested in anything i would want to find out exactly what i needed to clear both the right and left chainstays AND get a decent chainline.

this is one of those rare occasions where i might seek out the knowledge of some old grizzled PITA bike mechanic that is still living in the past. :50: and loving it. :lol:

BTW, if you don't have the largest chainring that you will ever want to use on that frame, ON the crank while you are trying to solve this problem, you may find that even if you solve the clearance issue with the crankarm you may have the same problem with the chainring. i learned this the hard way, but i don't want to talk about it...

FakeFuji 03-23-14 09:43 AM

Pictures might help, and at the very least be bike pron

stilltooslow 03-23-14 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan (Post 16602827)
this is one of those rare occasions where i might seek out the knowledge of some old grizzled PITA bike mechanic that is still living in the past. :50: and loving it. :lol:

You talkin' about me??! ;) Well, at least I'm not 'grizzled'……..yet!

Anyway, the idea of trying to find an older road spindle with extended length on the drive side is a decent suggestion, but of course you'd have to make sure that it was 70mm Italian and tapered for your crank. I have quite a few old 68mm road spindles like that, some of which are Campy, but you can easily find those spindles in 70mm on Ebay in 1mm increments from 111mm on up.

Scrodzilla 03-23-14 11:11 AM

Contact this guy and ask him what he used.

Also FWIW, those chainstays don't look particularly "huge" to me.

jpsawyer 03-23-14 11:52 AM

I have an '85 Guerciotti Pista with this exact setup and had no issues. The clearance is definitely tighter on this frame than others that I have seen with this setup, but I have had no issues.
Could it be that the BB is installed backwards? Since it is Italian threading both sides are are right hand threaded. And if I remember correctly, the Pista BB is assymetrical so I believe one side of the spindle sticks out more than the other which could be why only the NDS crank arm is hitting.

hueyhoolihan 03-23-14 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsawyer (Post 16603584)
I have an '85 Guerciotti Pista with this exact setup and had no issues. The clearance is definitely tighter on this frame than others that I have seen with this setup, but I have had no issues.
Could it be that the BB is installed backwards? Since it is Italian threading both sides are are right hand threaded. And if I remember correctly, the Pista BB is assymetrical so I believe one side of the spindle sticks out more than the other which could be why only the NDS crank arm is hitting.

sounds promising... :thumb:

fischer, max 03-23-14 12:41 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrodzilla (Post 16603493)
Contact this guy and ask him what he used.

Also FWIW, those chainstays don't look particularly "huge" to me.

I left it at my shop yesterday, so I've only got a handful of phone pictures to show the chainstay size. They're definitely bigger than the ones on that red Guerciotti though.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=370549http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=370550http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=370551

fischer, max 03-23-14 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan (Post 16603628)
sounds promising... :thumb:

Eeesh, that does sound promising. I will check this first thing on Monday. Embarrassing though that'd be, I'd be ecstatic if it was such a simple fix.

TejanoTrackie 03-23-14 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischer, max (Post 16603728)
Eeesh, that does sound promising. I will check this first thing on Monday. Embarrassing though that'd be, I'd be ecstatic if it was such a simple fix.

Is this the BB you are using ? If so, I don't see how you could install it backwards, and even so it is symmetric.

CAMPAGNOLO PISTA BOTTOM BRACKET

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/camp...bracket600.jpg

jpsawyer 03-23-14 03:13 PM

According to the Campagnolo site it is asymmetrical. Although it looks like different sites have it listed equally as symmetrical and asymmetrical. So who knows?
RECORD™ PISTA™ bottom bracket - Campagnolo - The official Campagnolo web site - Bicycle Parts and Components Cycling

fischer, max 03-23-14 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie (Post 16603928)
Is this the BB you are using ? If so, I don't see how you could install it backwards, and even so it is symmetric.

That's the English-threaded one, so not quite the same. I have the Italian-threaded one, which goes in clockwise on both sides, and according to Campagnolo it's asymmetrical.

TejanoTrackie 03-23-14 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsawyer (Post 16604124)
According to the Campagnolo site it is asymmetrical. Although it looks like different sites have it listed equally as symmetrical and asymmetrical. So who knows?
RECORD™ PISTA™ bottom bracket - Campagnolo - The official Campagnolo web site - Bicycle Parts and Components Cycling

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischer, max (Post 16604175)
That's the English-threaded one, so not quite the same. I have the Italian-threaded one, which goes in clockwise on both sides, and according to Campagnolo it's asymmetrical.

Thing is, unless you installed it with the flanged fixed cup on the NDS (left side), you didn't install it backwards.

fischer, max 03-23-14 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie (Post 16604207)
Thing is, unless you installed it with the flanged fixed cup on the NDS (left side), you didn't install it backwards.

Right. I was just saying an English-threaded BB couldn't be installed backwards, but an Italian-threaded one could. I don't think I put it in backwards, but it's worth checking.

bro 03-23-14 08:30 PM

i hope its just backwards! thatd be a relief. i was thinking earlier if you have an old vintage crankset and the square taper hole is all blown out from being taken on and off a lot that could be why but i didnt read the -whole- thread so idk


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