commander_taco

Nyaa...don't worry about it too much. Think about it this way: Western world has pillaged and ***** asia (not to mention africa) for so long (through colonization, slavery etc) and brazenly transplanted so much wealth that a different argument can be made. You may think that you have nothing with it, but you (your parents, grandparents etc) did benefit indirectly from all the unpaid wages to asians and africans of the past. That wealth differential did not disappear, but ended up making west (including US) richer at the expense of asia and africa. To make the long story short, spend some money on asian products. It would help a poor family out there in addition helping a few overpaid fatcats here (for the sake of this argument, assume that no child labor, exploitation etc is in order). Living condition for so many people is improving in china, taiwan etc as a direct result of US trade. Ideally, things should change in a direction such that everyone in the world (I mean every group of people) should enjoy the same standard of living, have access to comparable set of amenities, education, health care etc. So you are doing something noble by buying asian products, isn't it?! I made a very simplistic argument, only to convey the spirit.

Rev.Chuck

Walmart is not all bad, cruising through at 1am can be good, free entertainment.

wangster

Being from Taiwan orginally, at a very young age but still in touch with current affairs, I can say with certainty that the bikes made in taiwan aren't made by children or slaves. The craftsmanship in my opinion doesn't suffer if it was made in taiwan or china. I do with that it can be made in the US without having the price jacked up through the roof, but that's the way the world is.

As for Walmart, I have never shopped there nor will I ever. Not just because of the way the company is run, but also because they sell crap. Being an architect, I appreciate things that are well designed, this does NOT mean expensive, but it does mean that I like to know that whatever I buy isn't "designed" by a monkey behind a computer.

The US is a HUGE producer of waste, and thanks to Mr. President, it's not gonna get any better. His so called environmental "initiatives" are a joke, and as someone that works at an office that designs environmentally sustainable buildings, it's really not that hard to cut down our waste and pollution by at least 50%.

Just venting...back to biking...IRO bikes kicks a$$... love mine and i'm sure your wife will too.

DiegoFrogs

I've always felt that a company, like, say, Giant is a good example of an Asian company whose products I'd buy, since they are both owned and operated in taiwan. The work AND profits stay in taiwan. It's not like the american or european companies that move into third world countries just to exploit the low working wages (and previously the relatively strong American $), only to live in their California beachfront abominations. Having said that, I ride Suzue hubs, and Japan is more socially, environmentally and industrially progressive than America is by ANY means, and I support them. I have a quality product, made by well-paid skilled craftsmen, designed by dilligent engineers. I don't feel guilty about it at all. I'd have bought Phil Wood if I could afford it, but I couldn't.

I'm curious about IRO's new S.S.cyclocross bike myself, but I think I'd rather save up and support my local framebuilder.

colinm

Sorry, Rev - I didn't mean anything by asking abt the made-in. For the price, it had to be China / Formosa, it's just never come up before. I hope she likes it, it looks like a fun ride - I thought about getting one too, but I may hold out for something used. No disrespect to Tony, either. He found a niche and a way to make it happen. He didn't lay anybody off to do it.

rant -

I have been in meetings where the new factories our people are touring are dispayed. No sprinklers, no fire exits, no freaking walls between toilets in the restroom??? And they bulldoze the land clear by shoving all the debris just anywhere - into the river, into the neighboring lot, wherever. Just a mess.

No birds, no animals anywhere - care to guess why? No sanitation practices. Electrical blackouts 2 times a week. Grey snot from the pollution. Bikes everywhere (yay). Not Treks.

And in a few of the shots, there are our smiling American managers, thinking about how the profits are going to go through the roof when labor goes from $17/hr plus awesome bennies down to 0.50c a day. We have profit sharing here - no more than 3% of your gross pay per quarter for Joes like me. Managers above a certain grade ($100k yr and more ) get 30%. And ours just got cut to 2.5 because we do so well that the payouts totals gave the beancounters sticker shock. No modifier to the 30%'rs, tho. Last time bonuses got handed out I counted 3 new Mercedes' in the lot. I paid most of the bill for one months' daycare with mine.

And they have the cojones to actually show us these pics?

I buy used American cars, used bikes of all flavors, vintage American audio gear, and make a conscious decision to be aware of where my consumables come from. You can't avoid imports completely, though.


Really sorry to poop all over an IRO thread,

- grrrr

EDIT

I forget about all the imported junk I buy from Nashbar. There I go. Guess I'll try to keep it used unless someone knows an American component maker.

labratmatt

I've got to agree with chuck on this, you're talking total BS. Wal-Mart is in my community for different reasons than my LBS is in my community. There is some overlap, but that overlap exists in everything related socioeconomically.

Tony Arms

OK here is my take on this.
I could slap a "made in america" decal on every complete bike I sell , I have the right to but I don't.
I have no problem supporting global economy.
The factory that makes my frames is top notch. Are there better frames ? yes
Do you get value and quality for your money? yes that's why I do it.
Remember as soon as you put your Sugino crankset or nitto bars on the bike your whole buy american theory goes out the window.
Do I feel I am helping out the American economy ? Yes I do. Your local bike shops buy my products and sell them. He is making his $2.00.
My bike assembler didn't have to take a student loan for collage this year. Ask him if this is helping him out.
The bottom line is you would have to go far and long to find any product made entirely in the US.

My american car was build in mexico.

Tony

crusty_pedals

hey, so im just gonna say it. you could not build a complete bike in the US. or made out of all "made in the USA" parts. the tubes guys, they're all made overseas. and i dont think any american company makes tubulars, not in the US at least. so yea, sorry.

bostontrevor

Man, people are just missing my point left and right. Tony sort of touched on it, but I want to be clear.

I'm not talking about Wal-Mart-is-good or Wal-Mart-is-evil. I'm not saying that Wal-Mart is comparable to your local bike shop. I'm saying that to compare what Tony is doing to what Specialized does is as ludicrous as comparing your LBS to Wal-Mart. Sure, in the broadest of theoretical outlines they're similar, but when you consider the actual degree, it's a world of difference. I'm saying it's all a matter of degrees that adds up to a qualitative difference, people.

So maybe you buy yourself a Waterford and maybe your frame is now fabbed in the US and you can feel good about yourself.

But know what? That frame needs steel and that steel may very well be Chinese or Russian and you're back where we started. Or maybe that frame needs components and you have it outfitted with FSA parts. Know what? Those are Taiwanese. Or maybe you want it shipped to your bike store but the lumber used to make the cardboard for the box was logged in the Ukraine or the fuel to drive it there was pumped out of Kuwait or the under-development Caspian Basin.

See, there's an entire supply chain here. I think Tony's doing a great job and I appreciate his customer-first attitude. Each of the two times I've done business with him have been good experiences and I'd be happy to buy a made-in-Taiwan frame from him as well because at the end of the day what you're saying is that there ain't enough cheese to feed everyone and you have the moral authority to decide who goes hungry and who eats. I'm not preaching laassez faire here, but I'm saying that if we start with the premise that the people of one nation must be chosen to work and eat over the people of another nation then there's no good solution.

Do our purchasing decisions have ramifications? You betcha. I wouldn't buy 100%-authentic made-from-Albanian-prisoners shoes, but like I said, ultimately if you want to participate in the modern industrial marketplace you have to draw your line and say this is how much I'm willing to compromise. So get off your jingoistic high horse and start thinking about how to solve the bigger problem because robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't it.

colinm

I'm with Tony and BT.

My grudge comes from American companies getting in pissing matches with other companies in the same industry over bottom-line figures. Not quality, not community responsibility, just the bottom line.

Greed. I hate it.

If IRO was a business of 20 builders and 5 office folks, stockroom guys, etc. and they wanted to be bigger than "ORI" down the street, and to do that they moved the entire op to Malaysia, what would they have gained? In this case, IRO appears to be Tony, a builder, and that might be about it. Everything else was available and he put the pieces together. An innovator. Good on ya - I hope you do good and make it big, you deserve it by all accounts.


Tony - Your bikes and way of business are great. When I said I'd prolly get old used steel it's just personal pref - nothing else.

* jack *

[hijack]

Here is a short list of US brands owned by foreign countries.
I was surprised to see that FOX news is owned by an Australian Company... I didn't know that...

[/hijack]

karmical

yep...like i'm not going to buy something based upon it just being made in the usa. those days are past me, now my decisions are based upon company integrity more than whether or not it is made here or not...just because it is like tony, bostrev, and colinm all touched on in their posts.

i know people, friends of mine that will buy anything with a sticker that says made in the usa and really believe in their hearts that its 100% assembled right down the street in a factory made by their neighbors...while that may have been true in the past...its not like that these days.

i try and steer clear of those cheap products with the "made in china" sticker attached to them, but every now and then i have been known to pick up a cheap toolset and other stuff, but i try and stay clear...

off to work...

daveIT

I've been stuck in Italy for almost four years. I would love to go to Wal-Mart right about now.

Kogswell

What would Tony be trying to hide?

Taiwan is the center of the bicycle industry. It's what Japan was in the '80s, France and Italy before that, and The USA before that.

Why hide that your goods come from a place where bicycle production is serious business?

When Vanilla, Waterford, Rivendell, and even Kogswell need lugs, they go hat in hand to Long Shen in Taiwan. Because Long Shen makes better lugs than anyone else.

Let me give you just one example of why Taiwanese frames are superior to others. The tubing.

IRO (and Kogswell) frames are made of tubing from a company called ECO. ECO is the largest manufacturer of specialized tubes for bicycles in the world. When a frame shop in Taiwan goes to ECO for tubing, they take along engineering drawings that show how the profiles of the butting inside the tubes should be built. If the 555mm top tube on an IRO frame needs a 35/45mm butt/taper on the front end and a 40/55mm butt/taper on the rear end, then ECO does something magical. They program a machine to draw that tube to exactly those specs. No one else has a machine to do short run custom draws.

Columbus and Reynolds and True Temper all the rest -can- do this. But they don't do it for small customers like the shop where IRO frame frames are made. Taiwan is the only place where serious work like this has a home.

There's nothing to hide.

Just the opposite. Tony's frames and all Taiwanese frames are technically superior.

Chinese are modest people. Modest people who focus on quality and keeping their costs low.

I admire them.

Who brazes better? A guy who does one frame a week or a guy who does 30 frames a week?

colinm

"Who brazes better? A guy who does one frame a week or a guy who does 30 frames a week?"

Qty has nothing to do with skill, but my money is on the one-a-week dude.

"Just the opposite. Tony's frames and all Taiwanese frames are technically superior."

All?? I have a Schwinn that says otherwise.


Tony is not the same as Specialized. Tony is a guy, with a garage, or hut, or pole-barn, who sourced existing products and assembles them on-site here, I think. He goes to the world market with a shopping cart and buys goods to bake pies more or less.

peripatetic

[hijack2]
Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch, a Jewish Australian who contributes heavily to such worthy causes as the Israeli Defense Forces et. al. Interesting that a guy who doesn't pay US income tax or even vote is basically dictating the popular political discussion in this country. Hooray for liberalized (i.e. eliminated) media regulations.

[/hijack2]

53-11_alltheway

IRO complete bike looks pretty nice with a deep v wheelset.

Kogswell

Specialized, and most big American bicycle companies, are run by guys who really love bicycles.

I worked there for a couple of years and not only do they know and love bikes, they all hammer.

The fellow who runs Bianchi USA will be 50 soon and he still races at the Helleyer Park 'drome on Friday nights.

There's a myth that big bike companies are run by mindless dorks who don't know quality and who don't understand 'us'.

I've seen what Mike Sinyard at Specialized does when he's left to his own devices. He contracts with Yoshi Konno (3Rensho) to make frames. If anyone ever knew how to braze, it was Yoshi.

There's a reason why Specialized pumps out Langsters. Like it or not, the Langster is what people ask for.
If you want better bikes, Specialized and all the rest are happy to oblige.

But people want Twinkies.

And if you think the girls and boys in Morgan Hill ride Twinkies, think again.

colinm

I should have said Magna....good points.

Surferbruce

What a buzzkill of a thread....
Rev.- i bet you're wifes gonna love her bike. if the iro's went a little smaller i'd get my old lady one right now. she wants to try riding fixed but she's tiny and short of custom i'm still looking for something.
wherever you're bike comes from the point is the two of you are riding together.

sillygirl

Kogswell - thanks for making me smile this morning. Your world view is refreshing. People seem to be so quick to criticize companies for their choices/quality/location/etc and I think its just wonderful that they have the freedom to choose.

KrisPistofferson

Actually, if you wait a couple more hours 'til the bars close, it gets even better.

Kogswell

Don't get me started on Pacific/Magna/Mongoose/Schwinn.

A neighbor brought his Magna over to get fixed. When he picked it up it looked a lot like a Kogswell.

He claims to be happy w/ the transformation.

Am I the only one who pukes a little when he thinks about Pacific owning the Schwinn name?

Oh, and here's another nightmare. A Magna fixee at Walmart for $117.23. It won't really be a fixee. It'll be a SS. But it won't matter to Team Twinkie.

jim-bob

I'm going to go buy a magna. Do you think you could fix it up for me?

jessefive

Ha, I love it!