ClydeTim

So they can piss on you, shout obscene comments at you, break bottles trying to cause flats for passing cyclists, harrass female cyclists, and I'm supposed to treat them with dignity? NO, I don't think so!

Dave Cutter

I can't help but somewhat agree. But dignity... is NOT a commodity that can be given away. We can only accept the dignity that the homeless possess... and treat them accordingly. But it is impossible to treat the undignified.. with dignity. As the normal ritual behaviors aren't followed. It is just like CycleTim posted.

But jail drunks... and they sober-up within hours. An intervention of sorts will clean-up the effect of the drugs. But once back on the street... all but a few percent return to their addiction.

So... you proclaim that they can't help themselves (and I agree)... then you wonder if other cyclists are refusing or not trying (asking) to help them?!?

What special magic do you think cyclists might possess.... that they can cure addiction? Are you announcing that YOU have the secret cure.... and you're going to share that here at the forum?

For most of those people.... their addiction will sadly... only be cured with their premature death. While alive... they will live in disgusting squalor and jails. Or at least..... that is the way things have been for some time. Certainly regimented prison-like treatment facility's would be a better option for those already in grips of addiction.

But what can be done preventively. What will keep your son, daughter, grandchild out of such a situation.

Garfield Cat

I think TimothyH is defining dignity as who the person is, and not necessarily that person's behavior.

Bad behavior is a moral thing that cannot be overlooked. I see dignity as the first principle and behavior as the second.

Maybe an analogy is when a two year old has a trantrum and begins to behave badly.

skidder

Wow, interesting pics, ClydeTim. Thanks for posting them. I haven't been up that far in a few months, so I wasn't aware of how big the Anaheim encampments had gotten. Farther along towards the beach the camps are growing, but they haven't reached the edges of the trail . . yet. The largest concentration seems to be in the Fountain Valley/Santa Ana area, with a camp on the top of the levy behind the Fountain Valley Costco (opposite side of the River from the trail near the Talbert/MacArthur bridge) and on the other side of the River (Santa Ana side) down below the levy trail between MacArthur and Harbor bridges. There are still plenty in the crawlspaces under the bridges; you can see up into them where the trail drops down under the bridges.

Dave Cutter

I am sure you're correct. I think I looked at the word... maybe too literally. I didn't mean to change direction to a grammatical discussion.

My point is: Some of those people are plain old fashion dangerous. Both to themselves and to others. They can't help themselves.... and cyclists can not help them either. This is not a problem that can be solved with kind words, sympathy, good intentions, or even piles of cash.

This is a problem as old as city's and society's. Instead of pushing them off to the trash dumps (as was historically done) modern landfills have relocated these people to underpasses, and apparently... bike paths.

trailangel

Thanks for posting the pictures. It's worse than I thought.

TakingMyTime

Thank you for the pictures. I've never gone that far North on the trail and did not have any idea that it had reached those proportions. There is no way I'd let my wife ride alone through those encampments.

With all the above said... homelessness/substance abuse/mental illness is not going to go away. No matter how you assess the problem, it is not going to go away. I really think the best we can do is try to increase a police presence along the trail. Nothing is going to prevent an attack or confrontation but I would feel better if I knew there was some sort of police presence close by.

ClydeTim

No way, I would not allow a single female ride through. I myself have seen 3 "dignified" homeless citizens exposing themselves to passers by. I am surprised this is going on. In one of my pics, there is a new condo development in the background. If I had moved in there, I would be filing complaints daily with local authorities.

ZippyThePinhead

I was told today by someone familiar with the situation that a good number of these trail-dwelling folks have lawyered up as a result of the lawsuits, so if you hit one of them you might get the added bonus of being sued for negligence or something.

ClydeTim

They surely have and attitude about cyclists. One of the pics was taken where the tents are set up right at the edge of the trail. First time through that area, a woman and a man were sitting ride in the center of the lane heading South. I was shouting an alert as there were also cyclists heading north approaching the same area.

The woman moved right away bu the guy just stood up and said something sarcastic. I said to him, "use our head, you're blocking eh trail." I made sure to use a non aggressive voice so that he could not complain but he continued on withe sarcastic comments.

It's as if they are daring you to hit them. Knowing the rules of the trail, 10 MPH and knowing the other rule is " no person shall inhibit the flow of traffic, or stop and block the flow of traffic", I know I will not allow myself to get sued by one of these homeless people looking for a free handout.

I am waiting for the day they hurt a cyclist though. Maybe that will motivate local authorities to push them to another area. Maybe a big empty warehouse. I doubt that will happen though as they will not be able to freely do drugs in the facility. It would be nice though.

Sooner or later it is bound to happen. I know a few months back, 2 partners and I, all over 200 pounds were riding through the area when a skinny homeless, another dignified citizen was on the side of the trail and lunged out at us as we passed in an attempt to startle us. Didn't work but I was almost disappointed that there was not a confrontation that allowed us to cal the cops. That would only be more motivation to remove them from the immediate trail.

ZippyThePinhead

I think it would be very foolish to have a confrontation with someone who has nothing to lose.

A friend of mine who is a retired LEO tells a story about a restaurant in his patrol area which, unfortunately, was designed with the front door at the end of a long covered porch entrance. In other words, the entrance was the perfect location for homeless to sleep when the restaurant was closed. After some initial attempts to dissuade them, the homeless people made it quite clear to the owner, treat us right or you will regret it. The owner wisely responded by giving them occasional handouts, because he understood that the local law enforcement would be unable to protect his property. Police seldom prevent crimes from taking place, no?

In this case, I expect some of them would welcome a collision with a cyclist, especially one who has a job and something to lose. The county, which has sent a helicopter with a loudspeaker to warn the homeless to vacate the riverbed ahead of rainstorms, speaks clearly through their behavior. Don't expect the county to solve this problem.

I think in the future I'm going explore using Batavia between Lincoln and somewhere south. There's gotta be a reasonable detour to avoid SART between Lincoln and, say, Chapman.

TGT1

You can blame lawfare by the ACLU

It's only gonna get worse.

How lawsuits are forcing cities to face their homeless issues

HBCruiser1

Wow (those pics)!! Feed a stray cat and you just get more stray cats. Plain and simple. Stop feeding them and move them along. Our state is a sanctuary state (their words). A sanctuary for homeless, illegals and government workers. What about the taxpayers who have to live near this mess or have to do business in the area, who's on their side?

Our state is being run by the political elitists who live behind gates and don't have to deal with their political fetishes. It sickens me so many people let them get away with it and blindly follow along with their crazy excuses and make believe world.

PeregrineA1 

Cambridge parallels Batavia and SART from Fairhaven to Meats and has only residential traffic, no trucks, etc. It's a bit farther east, but it is one of the routes I use.

ClydeTim

Yeah those stray cats. I believe those organizations that provide all that trash to them ought to be responsible to clean it up as well. Look at the pic across the river. 3 or 4 tents left and the rest is just oiles of junk those volunteers believe they need and keep bringing it! That big load of trash out there should be enough evidence to prove otherwise. People keep talking about lawsuits but I'm guessing if I get hurt, I could sue the local authorities for allowing that mess to exist. I should be able to get at least a new bike out of it.

DrIsotope

In at least this instance, I'm thankful for living in a desolate inland desert, because the northern-most 25 miles of the SART are an unpopulated paradise by comparison. I haven't been down to the section west of the Big A in about 6 months, but the tent situation appears to have gone up exponentially in that time. I think it also helps at our end that the river goes long stretches between access points, so there's nothing near the trail. We had some encampments growing where the trail passes under the 10/91 interchange, but it appears that those have been cleared out-- which is almost a shame-- one of the dwellers in that camp regularly swept the trail where it passed under the freeway, so it was one less place to worry about glass.

TrojanHorse

Damn, those pictures are even worse than when I rode through there a few weeks ago! Unbelievable.

I generally have had no problems with the river dwellers on SART *or* SGRT but the trash and mess is a problem regardless. And it's getting dramatically worse.

llebcaz

I ride the SART nearly every day. Correction, I used to ride the SART nearly every day.

After being out of town for two weeks it was shocking to see the condition of the trail. It was bad before, now it's a total train wreck. The encampments are right up to and in some cases on the bike trail. Makeshift latrines plainly visible, bike frames stacked 6 feet high, beer cans and trash line the pavement. It reeks of urine, chemicals and marijuana.

Just after passing Angel Stadium Northbound on the trial, at the last underpass before the Honda Center, I had been following another rider. He had about 50 yards on me and we had slowed down due to the congestion. There was a circle of "campers" just off the tail. An adult male broke from the group running across the trail without looking. I saw the rider lock it up and tag the camper, both falling to the ground. The rider was able to control his fall, only a few scrapes. The camper remained on the ground, screaming. It felt like within seconds the ambulance and fire truck could be heard. They carted the homeless guy off in an ambulance.

The fire department checked out the rider and told him to "get out of here", I was wondering why they phrased it like that. As the cyclist collected himself and was preparing to ride a few blocks away to get picked up by his son the other "residents" started peppering him for his information. The rider bailed, and I can't blame him one bit. I can't say the thing was a setup, but it was quite odd how it all played out...

In December I rode up on the aftermath of a rider tagging a teenager who was with a group feeding the homeless, right by the fire training tower next to the stadium. According to even the friends and family of the kid he ran across the path without looking and was hit. Nobody was blaming the rider (at the time) but I can absolutely see fingers being pointed when the medical bills start rolling in. Be careful out there.

snidely

Well, I emailed several individuals at various levels of .gov, and have heard not a single response. The silence feels like a giant eff you. I guess we just don't matter all that much.

ClydeTim

I'm surprised the authorities allow those volunteer organizations to continue donating junk. The more junk they give them, the more they toss on the trail and on the river edge. Look at the first photo I posted, all that is junk left on the side of the riverbed. That shows how much it means to the homeless adn how much more they need it, that they can just leave it there.

Feel free to use any of my pics if you plan on sending more email to local authorities.

snidely

Thanks for posting the pics. They didn't load for me before (for some reason), so I just saw them for the first time.


For those not familiar with this section of the SART, these photos can't even convey how bad it truly is.

ClydeTim

I agree! Especially the Katella underpass. I usually see a mattress on the trail, a couple of druggies, and a dog or two standing right in the center of the trail, in the shadows.

I have also seen volunteers park their cars on the trail taking half of each lane in each direction. One lady even parked across the trail blocking both lanes in both directions. Also saw some volunteers playing football along the trail with cyclists approaching in both directions. Even the volunteers can pose a threat to cyclists with their lack of common sense.

snidely

Pictures emailed.

ClydeTim

Thanks! It has been suggested to me that I should email such photo evidence but I don't really know where to send them or who to send them to as I have read many comments about who actually runs the sections of the trail.

Much appreciated!

snidely

I got a response from the City Manager's office in Santa Ana, forwarding my message on to someone at OC Public Works that I was requesting trash and debris to be removed from the trail.


I think something was lost in translation.


Hey, at least I got a response.