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Old 10-22-06, 06:12 PM   #1
Chucklehead
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can we talk about politics here?

just want to get an idea of how people feel about prop 87.
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Old 10-22-06, 06:18 PM   #2
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I'm voting in 2 weeks. What is Prop 87?
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Old 10-22-06, 06:22 PM   #3
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yessers: http://yesoncleanenergy.com/

no'ers: http://www.nooiltax.com/
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Old 10-22-06, 06:24 PM   #4
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Another tax.
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Old 10-22-06, 06:24 PM   #5
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what do bill handel & john and ken think? i usually agree with them!
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Old 10-22-06, 06:58 PM   #6
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agreed ^^^
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Old 10-22-06, 07:03 PM   #7
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I think I got my absentee voter stuff recently, I should probably start looking at how I'm voting on this stuff.

On a side note, CA allows you to be a permanent absentee voter and it rocks. They mail you all your voting materials so you never have to worry about the hassle of going to the polls. Ok, I'll get off my mini-soapbox now.
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Old 10-22-06, 07:29 PM   #8
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I'm a little divided about this, but mostly for it. I'll try to keep my rant short, but since you asked

I'm all for the cause of eliminating reliance on forieign oil, cleaner fuels blah blah blah and I don't really care about another penny or two at the pump. At this point, the incremental cost of gas isn't that relevant to me.

I'd rather see more of a national movement to move to alternative fuels, something like the race to the moon in the 60's or the war effort in the 40's, or to a lesser degree, the recycling movement of the 80/90's. It's going to take an outcry from the american public to make something happen.

If prop 87 works, then California will become the role model for America on how to make this happen. If it doesn't work, it'll set the cause back for a generation. In the end, I'm for Prop 87. Someone has to do something, california has the resources, political lean and the best motivation to make it happen.

Anyway, if it fails, there is the ace in the hole on which America can fall back. The oil nations which fund most of the worlds terrorism rely on money from the US just as we rely on their oil. After the next major act of terrorism on US soil, hopefully people will realize that in fact, we funded the terrorist. When we end our reliance on foreign oil, the middle east economy will suffer a major setback. If other major industrial countries follow suit, the middle east economy will collapse. No more oil money, no more money to fund terrorism.

Someday people will realize this isn't just a 'leftist/green' issue. In the meantime, they're enjoying nascar. Peace out.
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Old 10-22-06, 07:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by caligurl
what do bill handel & john and ken think? i usually agree with them!
I haven't heard them talk about it themselves, but the commercials during their shows are against it. I agree, it's too loose ended. I might have voted yes if it was more specific, but it's too vague.
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Old 10-22-06, 07:52 PM   #10
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I haven't heard them talk about it themselves, but the commercials during their shows are against it. I agree, it's too loose ended. I might have voted yes if it was more specific, but it's too vague.
I got caught up in my rant and forgot to mention this. This really bugs me about this prop also. I suspect this prop is going to get killed in a landslide.
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Old 10-22-06, 07:58 PM   #11
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I voted for it. It is America's number one problem. Oil dependency. Another cruicial vote is on the water development bond. Should the levees break in the Bay area delta, a water catastrophe for all of California will ensue . This catastrophe will bring havoc to all of California. Better be prepared to fill your water bottles with Budweiser.
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Old 10-22-06, 08:14 PM   #12
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The prop is made to make us believe that we the voters can spank the oil companies with a nice new tax. Unfortunately there are no provisions in place that the oil companies do not pass the tax onto us.

It will primarily affect 1 oil company - Chevron because they are main company that actually extracts oil in California. It does not affect the handful of other companies that actually refine the oil..
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Old 10-22-06, 08:47 PM   #13
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Yes on 87 for me.
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Old 10-22-06, 08:59 PM   #14
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I'm glad I'm too young to vote...its too complex for me
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Old 10-22-06, 09:00 PM   #15
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Unfortunately there are no provisions in place that the oil companies do not pass the tax onto us.
This does not bother me. a) Passing along costs is not a zero-sum game. It still costs them... profit margins, lost business, etc. b) And, more importantly, the right people are paying -- the end users of the resource in question.
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Old 10-22-06, 10:16 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by dog hair
just want to get an idea of how people feel about prop 87.
Oh, dear <deity of your choosing> no!

FWIW, that sentiment applies to talking politics in here, not to Prop 87.

As for Prop 87 I have no opinion. I haven't yet engaged in any research on the current ballot initiatives, and have remained blissfully free (Don't own a television. Rarely listen to the radio.) of ad exposure relating to this election season.
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Old 10-22-06, 10:33 PM   #17
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Oh, dear <deity of your choosing> no!

FWIW, that sentiment applies to talking politics in here, not to Prop 87.
i think it's safe to talk about stuff like the props.... as long as we steer clear of the stuff that get's either side riled up!

as far as the props... it's good to hear what others think! (since bill, john and ken aren't helping me out much, yet!)
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Old 10-22-06, 10:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancemac
This does not bother me. a) Passing along costs is not a zero-sum game. It still costs them... profit margins, lost business, etc. b) And, more importantly, the right people are paying -- the end users of the resource in question.
That is true, but there isn't any promise that this tax will produce results that make us less reliant on oil, so we end up paying for it later with higher prices when this alternative energy beaurocracy (sp?) doesn't come up with a solution. I'm all for alternative energy, planning to have a green house (not greenhouse), drive hybrids or electric cars, and I recycle and carpool whenever possible. I would vote for this if they had written it in a way to hold researchers accountable for finding solutions. I have the same problem with school taxes, especially since I see the problem firsthand. They give more money to these schools and then let them spend it on crap they don't need. If I'm gonna pay more, I want to see results from it.
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Old 10-22-06, 11:50 PM   #19
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John and Ken said no to 87, here is the info..

Proposition 87. Alternative Energy. Research, Production, Incentives. Tax on California Oil Producers—State of California (Initiative Constitutional Amendment and Statute – Majority Approval Required)
Should California establish a $4 billion Clean Alternative Energy Program to reduce California’s oil and gasoline consumption by 25 percent through incentives for alternative energy, education, and training?

John and Ken say NO
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Old 10-23-06, 01:15 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by urbanknight
That is true, but there isn't any promise that this tax will produce results that make us less reliant on oil, so we end up paying for it later with higher prices when this alternative energy beaurocracy (sp?) doesn't come up with a solution. I'm all for alternative energy, planning to have a green house (not greenhouse), drive hybrids or electric cars, and I recycle and carpool whenever possible. I would vote for this if they had written it in a way to hold researchers accountable for finding solutions. I have the same problem with school taxes, especially since I see the problem firsthand. They give more money to these schools and then let them spend it on crap they don't need. If I'm gonna pay more, I want to see results from it.
I'll jump back in on this one, my tune is very slightly different since I hashed it out some more. Ideally I'd like accountability. On the other hand, it's kind of hard to 'require' someone to find an answer to this problem.

My fear is if this is voted down, it'll be another 5 years before anything comes around again. I do agree with others, reliance on oil (especially foreign oil) is one of the top 3 issues facing this country. It's one of the root causes/enablers of environmental pollution, terrorism, Iraq, Dick Cheney, trade imbalance.

I think we have to do something, anything to start resolving the problem. Even if this doesn't carry a 'guarantee', at least we'll be trying. Who knows, something good might accidentally come from it.

We aren't THAT far away, the technology just isn't mainstream. Imagine if you had solar panels that charged fuel cells all day which you ared used to run your house and charge your car overnight. Of course you'd still be able to draw energy if you didn't get enough, but you'd also give back excess energy. Really, all these things exist today, they just need greater efficiency and affordability to become mainstream.
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Old 10-23-06, 01:35 AM   #21
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i'm still undecided. but here's a rant:

start penalizing owners of gasoline burning automobiles(yes, even me) by increasing registration costs year-by-year. if they want to keep the cost down, they can have their car registered as a recreational vehicle and only use it off-road or on-track. or better yet, start penalizing manufacturers for building and selling them. there really are no more excuses. GM stopped making the saturn EV1 because they claim the technology wasn't as good as they wanted it to be. BS. how long ago was that, and what have they done since? HUMMERS. the key is to make GM pay for our gas by penalizing them by requiring them to pay for our gas. maybe that'll make them think a little harder about alternative energy.
at least other major manufacturers are trying. honda, toyota, and even ford have several hybrid vehicles in their line-ups. and while chrysler and GM both claim that hydrogen and effective electric power is still years away, look at what mazda is doing - already leasing hydrogen-powered rotary-engined RX8's in japan.
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Old 10-23-06, 10:02 AM   #22
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ronjon has a good point, but I was just hoping for some kind of designation. At least some direction on what to focus research on and someone they have to report to. dog hair made a good point too, but didn't they cancel a program like that recently? It was going to have a higher registration fee for gas sucking and "luxury" vehicles and a lower fee for gas saving commuters.
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Old 10-23-06, 11:06 AM   #23
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people simply dont care about higher prices at the pump...i think last summer proved that! did anyone see less cars on the road? more bikes? fewer huge trucks being sold???? of course not! this was hammered home for me while we were on vacation(and yeah i drive a truck as well...just not too often!). i saw one of those triple axle RV's towing an H2!!!!! it was easily the biggest "FU" to fuel conservation ive ever seen! people complain, but they dont care....tax the hell out of it, get gas up to five bucks a gallon, it wont matter....well, it wont matter until it ALL runs out...i have no idea when this will happen, but it WILL. only so many dead dinos down there ya know? and with the rest of the world slowly catching up to us on the whole petroleum usage thing....it wouldnt surprise me if it happens during my lifetime....whats this have to do with prop 87? not too much, more of a general rant about stupid gas and stupid cars...ok im done...that was kinda all over the place..
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Old 10-23-06, 11:51 AM   #24
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All I know is that oil companies and spending millions of dollars trying to get this thing defeated. I am a capitalist at heart, but big oils profits over the past few years are scandalous. Greatest example of war profiteering I have ever witnessed.

We put a man on the moon back in 1969 and we are still using pretty much the same internal combustion engine in our cars. I am for anything that will encourage putting more of our resources into developing cleaner and better fuel technology for cars.
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Old 10-23-06, 01:10 PM   #25
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Its another tax that we don't need. It also opens up a new government board with blank check spending, I don't think we need anymore of that.
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