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  1. #51
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomper View Post
    Why can't you teach your child to ride a bike in an empty parking lot?
    Because it is a MUP and we are entitled to use it as such? Common sense though, dictates that just because we are entitled to use the SART to teach our children to properly ride a bike , doesn't mean we can or should because rude cyclists with bad manners have made it unsafe to do so. Perhaps everyone should try The Golden Rule.
    Last edited by NutnBoltman; 09-19-12 at 10:20 AM. Reason: add words

  2. #52
    Senior Member JetWave's Avatar
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    One of my proudest moments as a parent was when she screamed back. "you stay on your side Lance!"
    She is my hero!!!!!!






  3. #53
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    Any MUP is a terrible place to teach a child to ride a bike. They are relatively narrow, especially for new riders that cannot ride a straight line. And there are lots of other users (rude or polite) that make it even more difficult for a new rider to focus on just keeping the bike going.

    Drivers don't want us on the roads. Bike Paths have been renamed MUPs and opened to any non-motorized use. Now the non-bike users complain about speeding cyclists. WTF. Where are cyclists to go for a safe ride? I think MUPs should be turned back into Bike Paths. Sorry for being so grouchy. The recent deaths have, for some reason, hit me hard and I am bitter and frustrated about not having a safe place to ride.

  4. #54
    A square going nowhere psalm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    I am bitter and frustrated about not having a safe place to ride.
    I think, for the most part, we all are.
    01:20:23:00
    05:23:59:00

  5. #55
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    The SART is as safe as you make it. True, you have no control over other non cyclist users, but you do have control how safe you make the SART. If you are speeding around non cyclist users on the SART as to make it unsafe, then you really belong on the highway.
    Last edited by NutnBoltman; 09-19-12 at 12:19 PM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NutnBoltman View Post
    The SART is as safe as you make it. True, you have no control over other non cyclist users, but you do have control how safe you make the SART.
    I don't think I have ever read more contradictory BS than this in my life and I follow politics closely. I have no control over other users that make sudden moves no matter how slow I go. I have no control over other users that can't walk, jog or ride a bike in a straight line. I have no control over users that wear headphones and can't hear me screaming on your left. I have no control over users that are so damn selfish that can't figure it out on their own that a narrow MUP requires ALL users to be single file, not just bikes.

    What about my rights to use the MUP as it was originally intended, as a bikeway to separate cyclists from cars? http://www.cabobike.org/prokop/Amicus-Forester.pdf Bikeways are transit alternatives, not playgrounds.

    Pedestrians travel at 2-4mph. Cyclists travel 12-20mph. These bikeways were designed for bikes alone, not pedstrians, baby carriages, jogger, skate boards, etc. Somewhere along the way the bikeway became the MUP and people are getting injured because of that.

    I'm using the bikeway as it was designed and intended. If you are walking on it or teaching a little kid to ride a bike on it, you're the one in the wrong place and making it dangerous for everyone.

  7. #57
    jmX
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    Quote Originally Posted by NutnBoltman View Post
    Because it is a MUP and we are entitled to use it as such? Common sense though, dictates that just because we are entitled to use the SART to teach our children to properly ride a bike , doesn't mean we can or should because rude cyclists with bad manners have made it unsafe to do so. Perhaps everyone should try The Golden Rule.
    Well, the SART is more of a bike highway than a neighborhood MUP. Hundreds of commuters use it every day. I have 2 kids, live half a block from the SART and ride it 3-4 times a week, and there's no way I'd take my kids to learn how to ride a bike on there. Same way I won't take them to I-5 on their first day driving a car when they turn 16. It has nothing to do with rude cyclists or bad manners, it has to do with common sense. I also don't let my 2 year old run into the street by himself - again that has nothing to do with rude drivers or bad manners.

    Once my kids can ride in a straight line, stay to the right, and know not to randomly do u-turns they'll be out there - training wheels and all.

  8. #58
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    I'm using the bikeway as it was designed and intended. If you are walking on it or teaching a little kid to ride a bike on it, you're the one in the wrong place and making it dangerous for everyone.
    It is not designated a Bikeway anymore, its a MUP. I am sure you have seen those signs that have yield to pedestrians/horses? 10 mph speed limit? Dont want to offend dude, but if your riding as if it is still a Bikeway, your really being dangerous.

  9. #59
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    I completely agree with jMx... I ride the SART often and there is no way I would be teaching kids how to ride a bike on the path; especially, in the area between Memory Lane and 17th. There are several blind curves which make it super dangerous. What is odd is that there is a park in the same vicinity which would seem to make more sense for that type of learning.

    I was on the SART the other day and there was a family of 4 or 5 and they were taking up the entire path by 5th street. I made eye contact with the mom and she just stared and smiled. Her two kids who were probably 3-4 were just walking right at me. She did not do anything, it was not until I came to a complete stop in front of her kids that she called her kids to come to the other side. She merely smiled at me as I clipped in and took off riding again.

    I don't understand how people like that could be so oblivious about the safety of her children. I almost got the impression that she wanted me to hit her children.

    There are a ton of "rude and inconsiderate" people out there; however, everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.
    "Everything is possible, the impossible just takes a bit longer."

  10. #60
    Senior Member Bobsled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahvaio View Post
    I was on the SART the other day and there was a family of 4 or 5 and they were taking up the entire path by 5th street. I made eye contact with the mom and she just stared and smiled. Her two kids who were probably 3-4 were just walking right at me. She did not do anything, it was not until I came to a complete stop in front of her kids that she called her kids to come to the other side. She merely smiled at me as I clipped in and took off riding again.

    I don't understand how people like that could be so oblivious about the safety of her children. I almost got the impression that she wanted me to hit her children.

    There are a ton of "rude and inconsiderate" people out there; however, everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.
    Some people are just clueless tho. I know it's a MUP and I have no problem sharing but really people need to be responsible and considerate for everyones' safety. I was ridiing on the Rio Hondo MUP yesterday from Downey down to North Long Beach and back. As I approached Florence Blvd by the golf course I see this woman walking her dog (Collie looks and size) off the lease. The dog is on the left side by the wall (there's a 4 ft wall in that section between the MUP and the water) and she is on the right side in the dirt. We are all headed north so they don't see me. I'm traveling about 18MPH at this point (a little fast I known under the situation but my speed wasn't really a factor). So as I get a tad closer I yell "heads up". She turns around, sees me and walks over to her dog and grabs the collar. As I pass, I say "thank you". She just looks at me like I have two heads. She should not be walking her dog off the lease. My friend was take down by a dog being walked off the lease on the SGRT about a year ago. Most dog owners will say "oh my dog won't do that" but you never know! Maybe the dog sees a squirrel and takes off after it, or another dog, knocking someone down. You can't control your dog and that creates a dangerous situation.

    So it's not so much about sharing as much as people doing what they are suppose to do. And look both ways before you cross the MUP!!!
    Last edited by Bobsled; 09-19-12 at 03:13 PM.
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  11. #61
    Ns1
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    I'm using the bikeway as it was designed and intended. If you are walking on it or teaching a little kid to ride a bike on it, you're the one in the wrong place and making it dangerous for everyone.
    I'm just gonna leave this here:

    newsignfeb2010.jpg

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ns1 View Post
    I'm just gonna leave this here:
    That's my point! Some bureaucrat stuck that sign up on what was initially designed and intended in the 1970's as a bikeway. Take a google search someday on multi use path injuries. It's time for OCBC or some other advocacy group to stand up for cyclists and point out that MUPs are a disaster. It's time to ban pedestrians off what was intended to be a bikeway.

    At the very least, pedestrians should be instructed to walk the opposite way of bike traffic (like they are supposed to do on the street) and step off the bikeway to allow cyclists to pass where possible. Heck, most of SART has more than adequate room to construct a walkway alongside of it to get pedestrians completely off the bikeway.

  13. #63
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    That's my point! Some bureaucrat stuck that sign up on what was initially designed and intended in the 1970's as a bikeway. Take a google search someday on multi use path injuries. It's time for OCBC or some other advocacy group to stand up for cyclists and point out that MUPs are a disaster. It's time to ban pedestrians off what was intended to be a bikeway.

    At the very least, pedestrians should be instructed to walk the opposite way of bike traffic (like they are supposed to do on the street) and step off the bikeway to allow cyclists to pass where possible. Heck, most of SART has more than adequate room to construct a walkway alongside of it to get pedestrians completely off the bikeway.
    Your statements sound similair to ones made by persons responding on articles regarding the two cyclists that were killed recently on PCH and Newport Coast Drive. Saying that Cyclists do not belong on the HWY.

  14. #64
    Senior Member TJClay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    I don't think I have ever read more contradictory BS than this in my life and I follow politics closely. I have no control over other users that make sudden moves no matter how slow I go. I have no control over other users that can't walk, jog or ride a bike in a straight line. I have no control over users that wear headphones and can't hear me screaming on your left. I have no control over users that are so damn selfish that can't figure it out on their own that a narrow MUP requires ALL users to be single file, not just bikes.

    What about my rights to use the MUP as it was originally intended, as a bikeway to separate cyclists from cars? http://www.cabobike.org/prokop/Amicus-Forester.pdf Bikeways are transit alternatives, not playgrounds.

    Pedestrians travel at 2-4mph. Cyclists travel 12-20mph. These bikeways were designed for bikes alone, not pedstrians, baby carriages, jogger, skate boards, etc. Somewhere along the way the bikeway became the MUP and people are getting injured because of that.

    I'm using the bikeway as it was designed and intended. If you are walking on it or teaching a little kid to ride a bike on it, you're the one in the wrong place and making it dangerous for everyone.

    People like you are the ones that give cyclists a bad name. What an elitist SOB you are.
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  15. #65
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    That's my point! Some bureaucrat stuck that sign up on what was initially designed and intended in the 1970's as a bikeway. Take a google search someday on multi use path injuries. It's time for OCBC or some other advocacy group to stand up for cyclists and point out that MUPs are a disaster. It's time to ban pedestrians off what was intended to be a bikeway.

    At the very least, pedestrians should be instructed to walk the opposite way of bike traffic (like they are supposed to do on the street) and step off the bikeway to allow cyclists to pass where possible. Heck, most of SART has more than adequate room to construct a walkway alongside of it to get pedestrians completely off the bikeway.
    ****ing pedestrians. They don't understand how intense the Pathlete Olympic Games training is.

  16. #66
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ns1 View Post
    I'm just gonna leave this here:

    newsignfeb2010.jpg
    I just noticed no Martini Glasses as well! Shucks! There goes my energy drink.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJClay View Post
    People like you are the ones that give cyclists a bad name. What an elitist SOB you are.
    Nice ad hominem attack. Elitist SOB was the best you could come up with? How do I give cyclists a bad name? Oh, that's right, you've never ridden with me so you have no idea how I ride or how courteous I am to other users. You assumed that because I want a safe place to ride my bike I'm an elitist SOB. I see that you did not quibble with me that bikeways like SART were originally designed and constructed for bikes only. I see that you did not quibble with me that MUPs are dangerous (google it, at least on study found that MUPs are more dangerous for cyclists than riding on the streets). You certainly didn't quibble with my assertion that there is more than enough room along much of SART (and CC and SGRT for that matter) to add a pedestrian only path along side the bikeway.

    At least GP creatively mocked me. But GP, why shouldn't pedestrians walk against the vehicular traffic on the MUP just like they are required to do on the streets? Wouldn't that be safer? I know bikes will never be given the right of way over pedestrians on the MUP, but why is it a bad thing to suggest it?

    The current system isn't working. People are getting hurt. And responsibility for the accidents is being placed on cyclists. There will be calls to ban bikes from MUPs, or least place so many restrictions on them it's not worth it to ride there.

    And NutNBoltMan, I disagree that I sounded like those motorists. I thought my arguments were polite and factually correct for one thing. Many MUPs were originally designed and intended for bikes only. The introduction of pedestrians to bikeways has made it more dangerous for everyone. Second, this thread is about bad manners on MUPs. Had this thread been about someone who was killed on an MUP, I would not have posted any of this because it would not have been the proper time or place for such a discussion. You'll just have to trust me on that last point.

  18. #68
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    I rode about 30 miles on the SART yesterday and I had a really odd thought.

    "Why were the DOTTED YELLOW LINES painted in the middle of the SART path?" Were they merely painted there for looks? Maybe to just waste money?"
    "Everything is possible, the impossible just takes a bit longer."

  19. #69
    Ns1
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    That's my point! Some bureaucrat stuck that sign up on what was initially designed and intended in the 1970's as a bikeway. Take a google search someday on multi use path injuries. It's time for OCBC or some other advocacy group to stand up for cyclists and point out that MUPs are a disaster. It's time to ban pedestrians off what was intended to be a bikeway.
    As NutnBoltman touched on, I'm pretty sure drivers use this argument to keep cyclists off the roads.

  20. #70
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahvaio View Post
    "Why were the DOTTED YELLOW LINES painted in the middle of the SART path?" Were they merely painted there for looks??"
    The lines are there so drunks can find their way home.
    Last edited by NutnBoltman; 09-20-12 at 02:30 PM.

  21. #71
    Senior Member TJClay's Avatar
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    Studies have really found that riding on MUPs are more dangerous then streets? How many deaths have heard of in the last week on MUPS? I agree that there are many ignorant walkers, joggers and people pushing baby strollers but there are at least as many cyclists that think they own both sides of the path. And you do sound like you think you have more right to the MUPs then the pedestrians do.
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  22. #72
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    And NutNBoltMan, I disagree that I sounded like those motorists. I thought my arguments were polite and factually correct for one thing. Many MUPs were originally designed and intended for bikes only. The introduction of pedestrians to bikeways has made it more dangerous for everyone. Second, this thread is about bad manners on MUPs. Had this thread been about someone who was killed on an MUP, I would not have posted any of this because it would not have been the proper time or place for such a discussion. You'll just have to trust me on that last point.
    BTW, I am an SOB, I am working on reaching Elitist status though. Cdp8: I dont doubt your knowledge of the MUP history. However a pedestrian, a dog walking their owner, or a person on a galloping horse on the SART does not have the slightest idea that it intended as a Bikeway.

  23. #73
    Just Keep Pedaling Beachgrad05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GP View Post
    ****ing pedestrians. They don't understand how intense the Pathlete Olympic Games training is.
    This made me bust up laughing. Thanks
    Move along....nothing to see here....anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJClay View Post
    Studies have really found that riding on MUPs are more dangerous then streets? How many deaths have heard of in the last week on MUPS? I agree that there are many ignorant walkers, joggers and people pushing baby strollers but there are at least as many cyclists that think they own both sides of the path. And you do sound like you think you have more right to the MUPs then the pedestrians do.

    re: safety of cycling on streets vs. MUPs:

    see: http://brenthugh.com/piano/bikesafetyfactsheet.html
    The cites are in footnotes 10 and 12.

    See also: http://www.ehjournal.net/content/8/1/47
    Results to date suggest that sidewalks and multi-use trails pose the highest risk, major roads are more hazardous than minor roads, and the presence of bicycle facilities (e.g. on-road bike routes, on-road marked bike lanes, and off-road bike paths) was associated with the lowest risk

    re deaths on MUPs no deaths I could find in the past week but:

    in June 2012: http://dcist.com/2012/06/woman_dies_...t_by_cycli.php

    In May 2012 serious injury collision: http://www.heraldandnews.com/members...9bb2963f4.html

    in 2010: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/commu...cle-on-603.ece

    Bike/pedestrian collisions are increasing on the street, not just on MUPs. In addition to the well-publicized pedestrian fatality in San Francisco, there was also one in Honolulu.

    I'm not trying to sound like I have more of a right to an MUP than other users. The rules are the rules on MUPs and I abide by them when other users are around. I do advocate reclassifying some MUPs as bikeways. Cars hate us on the road. Pedestrians hate us on the MUPs (one comment I read to an article on the DC fatality simply read kill all the cyclists). Our use as cyclists is at least as valid as pedestrians and cars and we deserve safe places to ride. If we cyclists and our advocacy groups don't do a better job of standing up for ourselves, safe areas to ride will become few and far between.

    User conflicts spiral out of control quickly and get emotional. I also mtb and there has been quite a few trails lost to mtbs because of conflicts between users. You have seen the vitriol directed at the deceased cyclists recently where they were the victims. Google those two fatal accidents and the anti-cycling vitriol you will see in the comments is even worse.

    NutnBoltman, I realize that about other users, and I realize the MUP rules are the current rules. I'm advocating changing the rules for the safety of cyclists.

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