Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > > >

Southern California Southern California

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-26-13, 09:57 AM   #1
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
CA DFG To Charge $4/day to ride Newport Back Bay?

Article in OC Register:

Quote:
Three weeks ago, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife posted a notice of its intent to charge a $4.32 daily fee for visitors of the 752-acre Upper Newport Bay Ecological Reserve. Called a Lands Pass, the permit is required to access Fish and Wildlife-managed areas where non-hunting, recreational purposes are utilized.
In my view, a pretty cheeky move by the DFG. I'd say the state gets enough tax revenue from me as it is, and I would like to know where I can queue up to tell them to go pound sand.
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 10:50 AM   #2
Garfield Cat
Senior Member
 
Garfield Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Bikes: Cervelo Prodigy
Posts: 6,015
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
The effect of such a regulation would hurt a lot of people who use that trail, not just riders. How are they going to regulate this?
Garfield Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 11:29 AM   #3
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I would imagine they will cite people when the opportunity presents itself. I have no idea what sort of violation they would cite a rider for, but the DFG citation costs start on page 118 of this document. The document dates from 2010, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn the amounts have increased. Unlike other remote wildlife areas, Back Bay is heavily trafficked, so this could be quite a revenue source.
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 12:08 PM   #4
Pamestique 
Shredding Grandma!
 
Pamestique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: So Cal
Bikes: I don't own any bikes
Posts: 4,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Do you know if that refers to the roads around Back Bay as opposed to the hiking trails and other use areas? I would suspect DFG is not responsible for or manages the road... (on either side). It would mean of course that gates are placed at a number of entrance spots and that they need to be monitored. I can't imagine the state has resources to monitor the area so its not something I would worry about.
__________________
______________________________________________________________

Private docent led mountain bike rides through Limestone Canyon. Go to letsgooutside.org and register today! Also available: hikes, equestrian rides and family events as well as trail maintenance and science study.
Pamestique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 12:30 PM   #5
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Government overreach rear its ugly head again. Personally, I think the state won't rest until they start taxing us for the air we breath. Government as racket.They can't afford all the ridiculous pension and public employee contract giveaways anymore!
__________________
Regards,

Jed
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 12:32 PM   #6
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Here's a map:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg mopvlk-mopvkvbackbayfee.0621gfx.jpg (89.6 KB, 79 views)
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 12:53 PM   #7
Wulf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Because they had such a good experience with the OC toll roads.
Wulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 03:30 PM   #8
Pamestique 
Shredding Grandma!
 
Pamestique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: So Cal
Bikes: I don't own any bikes
Posts: 4,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
so I guess I can just continue to ride the north side of Back Bay (which I usually do anyway to avoid the joggers, strollers and goobers)...or Eastbluff... no worries! Again they will have to put gates up at all access points of Back Bay Drive (and there are quite a few) in order to collect a fee... good luck with that!
__________________
______________________________________________________________

Private docent led mountain bike rides through Limestone Canyon. Go to letsgooutside.org and register today! Also available: hikes, equestrian rides and family events as well as trail maintenance and science study.

Last edited by Pamestique; 06-26-13 at 03:34 PM.
Pamestique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 03:43 PM   #9
LAriverRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Downey, Ca
Bikes:
Posts: 897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
Government overreach rear its ugly head again. Personally, I think the state won't rest until they start taxing us for the air we breath. Government as racket.They can't afford all the ridiculous pension and public employee contract giveaways anymore!
Carbon tax is coming, by executive order I believe. Don't call the prez cause he is on a multi-million dollar vacation. It's good to be King.
LAriverRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 07:25 PM   #10
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Usually when I ride BB I take the "Bayview Trail" (per Google Maps) which they want to charge access on and cut to the road in order to get to the bluffs (Castaway Park & the USMC memorial). I can do effectively the same on local roads, but this is just a "charge what the traffic will bear" kind of move, and I'll guarantee not a d@mned thing will change-- the trail surface won't be nicer, or wider, or safer, or anything-- it will just cost money, or risk being cited.

Yet more evidence of how this state is circling the bowl, in my view.
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 10:09 PM   #11
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post
Usually when I ride BB I take the "Bayview Trail" (per Google Maps) which they want to charge access on and cut to the road in order to get to the bluffs (Castaway Park & the USMC memorial). I can do effectively the same on local roads, but this is just a "charge what the traffic will bear" kind of move, and I'll guarantee not a d@mned thing will change-- the trail surface won't be nicer, or wider, or safer, or anything-- it will just cost money, or risk being cited.

Yet more evidence of how this state is circling the bowl, in my view.
You got that right!

And the worst is yet to come. The state's elected officials and some local governments are not gonna relent in their search for more revenue. And they are very aware that certain tax increases (eg vehicle licence fees) can cost a governor or other elected official his/her job (see Gray Davis), so that leaves what I call death by a thousand cuts, revenue increase by taxes such as the Back Bay tax, that only affects local people.

The darn state is just slouching towards irrelevance, as far as I am concerned.
__________________
Regards,

Jed

Last edited by Jed19; 06-26-13 at 10:20 PM.
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-13, 12:07 AM   #12
rooftest
Despite all my rage, I am
 
rooftest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Bikes: LeMond Zurich, Colnago C-50
Posts: 2,613
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for that map, Zippy. Since Newport Beach owns the road - it looks like people will be able to continue driving/walking/riding on it. That fee will last about 2 weeks. Once CA sees that nobody is willing to pay to visit that tiny park, they'll give up. (Plenty of nice free options nearby.)
rooftest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-13, 08:28 AM   #13
Pamestique 
Shredding Grandma!
 
Pamestique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: So Cal
Bikes: I don't own any bikes
Posts: 4,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
This kindof reminds me of two place where the State has bit off its nose to spite its face... the first is El Moro. I think parking is $10 or $15. I suppose for hikers and picnikers wanting to explore the area they are willing to pay the price but for us mountain bikers (and long distance hikers) we park up on Ridgepark (Newport Coast), at a beautiful FREE city park and ride into the area from the north end. Or one can buy a county pass for $55 ($35 if a senior) and ride in from Laguna Coast Widerness Park or the Nix Center. State loses.

Another place is the Chino Hills Discovery Center. Now its a nice facility with great bathrooms but it charges $5 a day to park. And parking does not open until 8am. It's right next to Carbon Canyon County Park. I rather use my $35 pass and then ride over to the State bathroom and through Chino Hills...plus I like to start rides at 7a not 8a... Plus Chino is open Friday, Sat, Sunday and Monday only... yet everyone rides there during the week... I have run into the rangers on a Wednesday, they have said hi and that's it.

State really needs to think things through (boy is that easier said then done). Now if they put up one decent Bathroom in Back Bay, I would consider paying a charge now and again to park and hike there. I will still just ride around the area versus stopping to pay. NOW charge the cars to drive through... I would love that. Might limit car traffic which for cyclists is a good thing!
__________________
______________________________________________________________

Private docent led mountain bike rides through Limestone Canyon. Go to letsgooutside.org and register today! Also available: hikes, equestrian rides and family events as well as trail maintenance and science study.
Pamestique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-13, 12:08 PM   #14
CrustyMcLovin
Junior Member
 
CrustyMcLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Orange County, California
Bikes: Specialized Enduro, Trek Soho, SE Big Ripper, many beach cruisers
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The fee to use the Back Bay is totally ridiculous, I'll ride there free of charge as long as I can until they put gates up or something. Do they really intend to charge all those dog-walkers $4 for the privilege too?!

The $15 parking fee at El Moro is lame too but doesn't seem to bother too many since the lot is often full on weekends. I typically park for free in North Laguna anyway and make a big loop out of it.
CrustyMcLovin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-13, 02:44 PM   #15
Garfield Cat
Senior Member
 
Garfield Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Bikes: Cervelo Prodigy
Posts: 6,015
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Here's what I found as far as contact. I tried to contact the region and left a message.

South Coast Region
Main Office
3883 Ruffin Road
San Diego, CA 92123
(858) 467-4201
FAX: (858) 467-4299

EMAIL the South Coast Region

Regional Manager: Ed Pert

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regions/5/
Garfield Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-13, 10:00 PM   #16
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'm in favor of squawking about this, but from a different angle, the DFG's own statistics-- if I am reading them correctly-- suggest that being cited for wildlife area violations is relatively uncommon.

However, I'm not a lawyer, so maybe cycling through a wildlife area without a permit is some other kind of violation. Whatever sort of violation it is, there are many anecdotes out there regarding disproportionately expensive DFG citations for violations that seem to me to be pretty minor. I found the 2013 bail amounts for OC, and all of the DFG stuff (starts on page 129) is big dollars. Some of it is jaw-dropping: use the wrong ammo, $2,120 total fine. Fishing without a license, $485 total fine.

I rode Back Bay last Friday (6/21/2013) and saw a couple of game wardens/CDFW officers there, right over by Irvine & University. I was unaware of this issue at the time, so I didn't look real close as I rode past.
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-13, 08:40 AM   #17
Genaro
Senior Member
 
Genaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Rosena Ranch, Ca.
Bikes: Motobecane Immortal Force
Posts: 1,220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAriverRat View Post
Carbon tax is coming, by executive order I believe. Don't call the prez cause he is on a multi-million dollar vacation. It's good to be King.
Time to buy an aluminum bike then
Genaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-13, 05:18 PM   #18
Garfield Cat
Senior Member
 
Garfield Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Bikes: Cervelo Prodigy
Posts: 6,015
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
I called the City of Newport Beach and the City Council met this Tuesday and asked the Mayor to write a letter to the State on this.

Here's the Daily Pilot article

http://articles.dailypilot.com/2013-...an-tony-petros

Sounds like there is a lot of "behind the scenes" activity going on to resolve this issue.
Garfield Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-13, 10:53 PM   #19
MattCycle
Bicycle Rights
 
MattCycle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'd honestly pay $20 a year IF it was used to improve the trail but I doubt that is what they are intending to do. In all likelihood they see it as a high trafficked area that they can use to subsidize somewhere else - as if paying to live in Newport Beach with trails like Back Bay isn't enough.
MattCycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-13, 11:06 PM   #20
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I called the DFG on Friday, mainly to ask what section it would be a violation of to ride there without a Lands Pass. But they have not called me back.
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-13, 06:04 PM   #21
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I got tired of waiting for the local DFG/CDFW to call me back, so I called their main enforcement division number in Sacramento.

The warden I spoke with could not tell me what the violation would be, exactly, and I'm no lawyer or expert on CA code sections either. He explained that it's hard to know what the violation would be without knowing precisely who was responsible for the region of Back Bay in question: county or state. He reckoned it was a county thing, but was not sure. In any case, if it really is a violation at the state level, it is an infraction, probably of section 550 (b) of the CCR:

Quote:
(b) Area Regulations:
[...]Permit Requirements. No person shall enter any State wildlife area or portion thereof where the department has limited public entry without a valid entry permit in their immediate possession. [See subsections 551(f), (g), and (h) for regulations regarding general requirements and costs for individual entry permits.[...]
There is no bail listed for this in the OC Bail & Penalties Schedule that I could find, but according to this:

Quote:
(b)Notwithstanding subdivision (a), any person who violates any of the following statutes or regulations is guilty of an infraction punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100), or more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or of a misdemeanor:[...]
(9)Sections 505, 507 to 510, inclusive, and 550 to 553, inclusive, of Title 14 of the California Code of Regulations.

Now, using the Uniform Bail and Penalties schedule as a guide, infractions with a base fine of $100, like fishing without a license, have (in the 2013 schedule) a total bail of $485. There are other infractions which have higher base fines, but the total bail is not quite proportional. I found at least one example with a base fine of $250, which gets you a total bail in excess of $1100, but the vast majority of infractions listed have a total bail of $485. So my guess would be that getting caught riding the CDFW-administered portion of Back Bay without a pass or appropriate license would prolly get you a $485 citation.
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-13, 12:38 PM   #22
bowser29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
have they started charging the fee to ride there?
bowser29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-13, 08:35 PM   #23
ZippyThePinhead
Slacker
Thread Starter
 
ZippyThePinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North Orange County, in Southern California
Bikes: 1986 Peugeot Orient Express, 1987 Trek 560 Pro, 1983 SR Semi Pro, 2010 Motobecane Le Champion Titanium, 2011 Trek Fuel EX 8
Posts: 1,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
It is apparently a requirement already. They posted signs around the area, which I did not see, that announce this requirement. I gather from the various media accounts that they can begin citing folks any time they want, though they have been requested by the NPB City Council to *not* enforce.

The local DFG did call me back and stated that not having the lands pass is a violation of Fish & Game Code section 7145 (a), which is the same section they cite you for violating when you fish without a license. The total cost of the citation would be $485, according to the Bail & Penalties Schedule (page 134).
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-13, 09:20 PM   #24
allenpg
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ironically, you can bike, hike, run, etc. in state parks for free (you just have to pay for parking). However, if you want to do any of that in the Back Bay you would have to pay!!??

I like the WI model...charge a reasonable yearly amount for state park passes and trail passes, then set up rangers at strategic points on the trail to ticket people without a pass. 9/10 times you'll get someone out of state on a $4K bike not wanting to cough up $5 for a trail pass (and the money went directly to trail maintenance).

This state would be better off overhauling it's pension system and screwed up property tax system...
allenpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-13, 10:25 PM   #25
Rumpled
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 904
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It's gotta be impossible to police that with all the trails and entrances around the Back Bay. My hunting license is usually good at DFG/DFW properties, I'll have to carry it when running or biking out there.
Rumpled is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:57 AM.