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-   -   Not sure what I saw... (http://www.bikeforums.net/southern-california/912393-not-sure-what-i-saw.html)

genec 09-11-13 11:12 AM

Not sure what I saw...
 
Driving down the freeway this AM to my job, which is in a very autocentric part of town... and off to the right on a long long ramp is a cyclist, down, being tended to by EMT. Cop standing by, maroon colored truck stopped just ahead.

I can only imagine that the cyclist decided that the only surface street access to the area was just too freaking long, and either took the ramp from Miramar road to Mira Mesa Road (long and steep, with a 5-6 foot shoulder) vice taking the several mile long street route.

The only other access to the area is via the shoulder on Interstate 5, so perhaps this cyclist tried to mimic that access route on Interstate 805 instead, only without success. I wish him well.

The access to this area for cyclists is abysmal and the area is full of wide high speed arterial roads with speed limits of 55 and 65MPH... it is very unfriendly to cyclists... and the narrow bike lanes along such roads are really a joke.

Motorists have at least 2 freeways and many high speed roads to access the area... cyclists have not much and all of it is rather steep and circuitous and eventually routing a cyclist onto any of several high speed multilaned arterial roads.

CommuteCommando 09-11-13 11:40 AM

Google earthed it. I don't think it is a Bikes on Freeway legal section, but don't see it as inherently unsafe, unless cyclist was going ninja. Possible even Salmoning.

genec 09-11-13 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommuteCommando (Post 16054911)
Google earthed it. I don't think it is a Bikes on Freeway legal section, but don't see it as inherently unsafe, unless cyclist was going ninja. Possible even Salmoning.

It is not a legal access for bikes... I just think he was trying it. It is a fast steep downhill, so any issues and you could be in trouble with the MV traffic. Either way, if he stayed on the shoulder, should be no problem... but apparently there was a problem. I'll watch for news releases.

Believe me, that is a tough area to commute into, either legally or otherwise. I've been a bike commuter since I was a kid, and frankly I won't tackle this area due to too many frustrated drivers, too high of speed limit and too wide of road... it is a recipe for disaster. I used to commute to Sorrento Valley road and to Lusk, but to Mira Mesa road into that 805/Mira Mesa junction... that is just too much.

Gallo 09-12-13 08:12 AM

That is a pretty crazy place to ride.

Camino Santa Fe to Carroll Canyon gets you there so there is a route. Most times the cars are light on this stretch but rush hour will make it busy for those trying to stay off the 805. There are always rocks on the road by the quarry on Camnio Sante Fe. Carroll Canyon is normally pretty tame. Agreed the transition under the 805 bridge and Mira Mesa Blvd is not bike friendly at all and during rush hour it is dangerous in a car.


Going across Eastgate Mall will get you to Gennesee the 5 in good order as well and avoid the 805 on/off ramp

Given the nature of the part of the freeway it is possible that there is allot of road debris,

Hope the guy is ok.

genec 09-12-13 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gallo (Post 16057694)
That is a pretty crazy place to ride.

Camino Santa Fe to Carroll Canyon gets you there so there is a route. Most times the cars are light on this stretch but rush hour will make it busy for those trying to stay off the 805. There are always rocks on the road by the quarry on Camnio Sante Fe. Carroll Canyon is normally pretty tame. Agreed the transition under the 805 bridge and Mira Mesa Blvd is not bike friendly at all and during rush hour it is dangerous in a car.


Going across Eastgate Mall will get you to Gennesee the 5 in good order as well and avoid the 805 on/off ramp

Given the nature of the part of the freeway it is possible that there is allot of road debris,

Hope the guy is ok.

Carroll Canyon is really the only way... of course bordered by Miramar road (55MPH) at one end and Mira mesa (55MPH) on the other, not to mention about 3 miles longer than the most direct highway route. Of course you can take Genesee to Roselle street, by using the Interstate 5 ramp and shoulder (70MPH) or you can go way out east and use Kearny Villa Road (65MPH) to access Black Mountain Road and eventually Gold Coast road, but eventually you end up on Mira Mesa (55mph) to get to Sorrento Mesa or Sorrento Valley.

10's of thousands of people work in that area, and really access by bicycle is abysmal... but hey, tons of money is being poured into the freeway in the area to add two car pool lanes... gosh, golly and gee wizz. (and yes, this does mean construction debris is scattered all over Carroll Canyon road, which will eventually be the access road to the new car pool lanes... thus screwing up the only route that cyclists might take...)

spivonious 09-12-13 08:55 AM

Maybe area cyclists should get together and ask for a protected cycle lane long the freeway. It doesn't seem like there are any good ways to get around that area.

Gallo 09-12-13 09:09 AM

agreed access to Sorrento Valley is poor for commuters from the south side of Sorrento Valley

The only route I would take would be the 5 off Genesee or possibly going around Via Torrey Pines and take the scenic route and get some extra miles in. The 5 is a more direct route to Sorrento Valley and the expected path one would take.

Surface street access to Sorrento Valley in and unto itself is non existent and poorly planned. Now in a car it can only be accessed via freeway or Mira Mesa Blvd as the north side of the road has been closed for car traffic for years, there is a bike access alongside the lagoon. This is certainly an area with few options for either cars or bicycles. I can only say it was better served as horse stables than a business park but that was long ago.

What would you suggest other than the 5 to access Sorrento Valley from the south?

Gallo 09-12-13 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spivonious (Post 16057843)
Maybe area cyclists should get together and ask for a protected cycle lane long the freeway. It doesn't seem like there are any good ways to get around that area.

They did and the solution was down the 5 to Roselle.

I think it is not a bad idea you present however to have it separated from freeway which it is not. On the decent it is not too bad as it is a fast bomb down the hill and you are off, the climb up and out is not easy and puts you on the shoulder of the freeway/off ramp for a bit of time. I am not sure if a separation rail/barrier has been discussed but it certainly would be a good idea.

Bombing down the 805 would serve little purpose. While I sympathize that the gentleman was hurt I am not sure of his goal. Access to Mira Mesa is good yes it is busy and fast but there is ample room the roads are good and there are side street options if you choose them. And going across Eastgate Mall from the 805 Miramar rd to Genesee to the 5 is a good route to Sorrento Valley.

Furthermore I missed another entrance by both bicycle and car that I did not mention earlier Calle Cristobal runs straight into Sorrento Valley Blvd along the South rim of the Penasquitos Reserve from the north side of Mira Mesa heading west. From the north it can be accessed via El Camino Real to Carmel Mtn Rd west to Sorrento Valley Rd. It is odd I forgot these routes as I have used them many times but my destination has not been Sorrento Valley so I just kind of well forgot, as I am just passing through. This is the best route in. The problem is those closer to the coast heading north it is out of the way and then the 5 is the best option or adding miles and working around past Torrey Pines which is a lovely ride along the coast and around the lagoon.

Don't get me wrong I do not consider this biketopia, there is room for improvment

turbo1889 09-12-13 07:43 PM

I do shoulder edge ride on the interstate freeways (not illegal in my state because sometimes in rural areas its the only route available), so I do have some experience with that type of situation (just not in my own locality not in the area under discussion). So maybe I can shed some light on the issues involved.

Long story short, when it comes to bicycles on interstate freeways, that is the ultimate form of edge-riding, taking the lane when any traffic is present is not an option and you do not hold your line across freeway on/off-ramps but instead either:

----- Go part way down the off-ramp, stop and wait for a good break in traffic and then cross the ramp perpendicular and then continue on the freeway shoulder edge until the on-ramp, stop and wait for a good break in traffic and then cross the on-ramp perpendicular and follow the shoulder edge of the on-ramp up until it connects with the main freeway shoulder edge and continue on your way.
----- Just follow the shoulder edge of the off-ramp down or up to the under or over cross-street and cross over it going straight (stop sign or stop light) and follow the shoulder edge of the on-ramp up until it connects with the main freeway shoulder edge and continue on your way.


So long as you use that kind of submissive shoulder edge riding technique always yielding to ramp traffic and being careful how you deal with the over/under-pass on/off-ramps its actually a pretty safe way to ride. The biggest problem I've run into is narrow bridges without a shoulder edge. Narrow over-passes without a shoulder edge are usually easily handled by just using the second technique of going down the off-ramp and up the on-ramp shoulder edge but with bridges its a different story. This bridge is the one main headache I have on a 300 mile travel route I quite often take from where I live to Bozman, MT and back:

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...=11,83.67,,0,0

That's a major freeway bridge going east out of Missoula that is narrow with no shoulder edge with freeway traffic doing at least 70-mph and usually more. The only way to handle that is to stop on the shoulder edge where the narrow bridge warning sign is and wait for a big long gap in traffic and then sprint across the bridge pedaling like a mad man to reach where there is once again a nice wide shoulder edge on the opposite side.

I don't have to deal with tunnels on the freeway up in my state but I imagine tunnels without a shoulder edge would be far worse.

Long story short, shoulder edge riding on a freeway can be done and done with reasonable safety by a cyclist. It's just that you practically have no road rights, or at least none that any other traffic has a chance in hell of respecting so you have to ride accordingly and stop and wait some times for a gap big enough to cross either an on/off-ramp or a narrow bridge.

-------------------------------------

From the OP's description my best guess is that the cyclist in question tried to hold his line across the ramp expecting high speed vehicle ramp traffic to yield to him rather then waiting for a good gap to cross the ramp. Just a WAG on what might have happened based on my experience with riding a cycle on the shoulder edge of freeways.

Would the OP mind posting a google-map link to the road area where this occurred similar to the link I provided for that freeway bridge I find a real PITA to cross?

CbadRider 09-12-13 08:35 PM

Moved from A&S to SoCal regional.

Gallo 09-12-13 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo1889 (Post 16060020)
I do shoulder edge ride on the interstate freeways (not illegal in my state because sometimes in rural areas its the only route available), so I do have some experience with that type of situation (just not in my own locality not in the area under discussion). So maybe I can shed some light on the issues involved.

Long story short, when it comes to bicycles on interstate freeways, that is the ultimate form of edge-riding, taking the lane when any traffic is present is not an option and you do not hold your line across freeway on/off-ramps but instead either:

----- Go part way down the off-ramp, stop and wait for a good break in traffic and then cross the ramp perpendicular and then continue on the freeway shoulder edge until the on-ramp, stop and wait for a good break in traffic and then cross the on-ramp perpendicular and follow the shoulder edge of the on-ramp up until it connects with the main freeway shoulder edge and continue on your way.
----- Just follow the shoulder edge of the off-ramp down or up to the under or over cross-street and cross over it going straight (stop sign or stop light) and follow the shoulder edge of the on-ramp up until it connects with the main freeway shoulder edge and continue on your way.


So long as you use that kind of submissive shoulder edge riding technique always yielding to ramp traffic and being careful how you deal with the over/under-pass on/off-ramps its actually a pretty safe way to ride. The biggest problem I've run into is narrow bridges without a shoulder edge. Narrow over-passes without a shoulder edge are usually easily handled by just using the second technique of going down the off-ramp and up the on-ramp shoulder edge but with bridges its a different story. This bridge is the one main headache I have on a 300 mile travel route I quite often take from where I live to Bozman, MT and back:

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...=11,83.67,,0,0

That's a major freeway bridge going east out of Missoula that is narrow with no shoulder edge with freeway traffic doing at least 70-mph and usually more. The only way to handle that is to stop on the shoulder edge where the narrow bridge warning sign is and wait for a big long gap in traffic and then sprint across the bridge pedaling like a mad man to reach where there is once again a nice wide shoulder edge on the opposite side.

I don't have to deal with tunnels on the freeway up in my state but I imagine tunnels without a shoulder edge would be far worse.

Long story short, shoulder edge riding on a freeway can be done and done with reasonable safety by a cyclist. It's just that you practically have no road rights, or at least none that any other traffic has a chance in hell of respecting so you have to ride accordingly and stop and wait some times for a gap big enough to cross either an on/off-ramp or a narrow bridge.

-------------------------------------

From the OP's description my best guess is that the cyclist in question tried to hold his line across the ramp expecting high speed vehicle ramp traffic to yield to him rather then waiting for a good gap to cross the ramp. Just a WAG on what might have happened based on my experience with riding a cycle on the shoulder edge of freeways.

Would the OP mind posting a google-map link to the road area where this occurred similar to the link I provided for that freeway bridge I find a real PITA to cross?

your description is not accurate comparing Missoula to San Diego is like comparing apples to aardvarks just not the same. The 805 has a traffic count of about 214,000 per day or 107,000 going north or south near this off ramp

This section is illegal by all stretches of the law and imagination

Imagine during rush hour 4 lanes wide in one direction with cars following closely to each other that they leave little or no room for error, Johnny left late for work and now is trying to make up time by weaving in and out of traffic while drinking coffee, eating a doughnut, texting his girl and rapping with his favorite artist while he complains all the *****es just don't know how to drive. Welcome to So Cal

Now our cyclist is going onto this freeway illegally with really no need to merge anywhere nor can he. He needs to stay right, If he takes the lane he is committing suicide. This off ramp has two lanes and proceeds under a bridge and continues as two lanes making the freeway essentially 6 lanes and then exits onto a bridge which is a bit narrow and expands to four. During rush hour it would be packed here as Miramar Rd and Mira Mesa Blvd are heavy enter exit points

It is a little odd to be where he was


http://www.webspawner.com/users/beachbuminda650/

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Miram...alifornia&z=13

ooga-booga 09-12-13 10:16 PM

yes...nearly all the major arteries in the
miramar/mira mesa/utc/ucsd/sorrento valley
are difficult enough for experienced riders, much
less a newer/infrequent one.

personal least fave spot in the area is the 4 lane
stretch of east bound mira mesa blvd just before the
15 fwy. fastest way into scripps ranch but also dangerous.
gives westbound harbor dr by the airport a run for its money.

genec 09-13-13 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooga-booga (Post 16060378)
yes...nearly all the major arteries in the
miramar/mira mesa/utc/ucsd/sorrento valley
are difficult enough for experienced riders, much
less a newer/infrequent one.

personal least fave spot in the area is the 4 lane
stretch of east bound mira mesa blvd just before the
15 fwy. fastest way into scripps ranch but also dangerous.
gives westbound harbor dr by the airport a run for its money.

I know that area... Just past Black Mountain Road... a vast sea of asphalt and impatient motorists waiting to either get on the freeway or turn into one of the many shopping center entrances there. I once parked at the Best Buy in that area and dared to walk across Mira Mesa Blvd... as if mere red lights could hold back that metal tide.

Black Mountain road isn't too bad if you are cycling north and south, but Black Mountain and Mira Mesa combined, and right at the 15... oh man... Here is a google link for anyone interested. http://goo.gl/maps/nmFjf Note the two right lanes peeling off of east bound Mira Mesa onto the freeway... that means a cyclist has to cross two lanes of MV traffic that is racing to get onto the freeway... nice.

turbo1889 09-16-13 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16061532)
. . . Here is a google link for anyone interested. http://goo.gl/maps/nmFjf Note the two right lanes peeling off of east bound Mira Mesa onto the freeway... that means a cyclist has to cross two lanes of MV traffic that is racing to get onto the freeway... nice.

Thanks for the link. Yah, that doesn't look like one little bit of fun at all for a cyclist shoulder edge riding on the side of the freeway. Stopping and waiting for a gap to cross an on/off-ramp perpendicularly is a possibility with only a single lane on the ramp and a traffic pattern that allows for the occasional break for crossing. Two lanes and a traffic pattern that's a solid bumper to bumper stream with no crossing breaks, that pretty much makes things a no-go for any possibility for riding on the freeway edge and being reasonably safe doing so.


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