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  1. #51
    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calamarichris View Post
    Not quite yet...


    "Cars suk. Cars are evil. People who drive cars suck and are evil. Yay-bicycles. Bicycles are pure & good. lol Yay-bicyclists, cuz they pure & good, and thei should take up the entire lane. NE1 who doesn't take up the entire lane also sucks and is evil."

    There, now we're at least on par with A&S
    You forgot to include the other A&S point of view:

    "Anyone who runs a stop sign suks. Stop sign runners are evil. Stop sign runners make all cyclists look bad. Drivers never break vehicle laws. Bicycles are vehicles. Cyclists should never break the law. Anyone who does is a schmuck and makes all of us look bad."
    Scott CR1 Team

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKV11000 View Post
    I'm fully against earbuds, always have been. I've had way too many close calls where someone didn't hear me call "ON YOUR LEFT" and swerved into me in surprise as I passed.
    Calling out doesn't absolve you of responsibility of being the vehicle coming from behind. Either pass with enough room to do so safely or don't pass. It doesn't matter what the rider in front of you can or cannot hear. Earbuds are not the issue in your example. Passing to close to another ride is unsafe on your part.

  3. #53
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    When I was doing the Cool Breeze Double Metric, I had a guy wearing earbuds in front of me randomly take his hands off his handlebars and start playing air guitar in the middle of the road. That was one of the more interesting things I've seen....

  4. #54
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blarnie View Post
    Calling out doesn't absolve you of responsibility of being the vehicle coming from behind. Either pass with enough room to do so safely or don't pass. It doesn't matter what the rider in front of you can or cannot hear. Earbuds are not the issue in your example. Passing to close to another ride is unsafe on your part.
    I believe it is assumed that a cyclist is reasonably able to hear the voice of others on the road. Otherwise, how can you overtake someone on the right after calling out? This is exactly what happened to me. This cyclist was riding slowly in the middle of the bike lane. I came up behind her and called her out. She moved to the right, which made me assume she heard me. Then as I was passing her, she suddenly swerved to the left, almost pushing me to the curb. It turned out, she had ear buds on. I don't think I made any unsafe move there.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Anderson

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    I came up behind her and called her out. ...which made me ASSUME she heard me. I don't think I made any unsafe move there.
    Except for assuming.

    This whole deal about calling "on your left" is ridiculous. Plain and simple. It is much safer to not call anything. Especially in crowded conditions such as the MUP. It is startling to other riders or walkers, etc. to hear someone yelling from behind. There is already an expectation of traffic passing and yelling only deviates from that.

    There is also an assinine entitlement to the idea that because you're going faster than someone else, yelling at them to beware of your presence is deemed proper. It is not. It's poor form.

    Just pass them with safe space in a calm quiet unsettled and non-spasmodic fashion. It is the responsibility of the vehicle coming from behind to proceed safely. Not for the person being passed to see behind themselves. And you should never be in the same lane while passing another.

    And while were on the subject of yelling at others while riding. Enough with calling out all the **** in the road. I just cannot stand a group ride with someone who calls out every last g-damn thing in the road. Shut up! Just shut up!

    It's distracting and annoying.

    I know the road is f'd up. There are potholes everywhere, glass and nails in abundance and you better believe I'm stopping for the light.

  6. #56
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blarnie View Post
    Except for assuming.
    How so? I called her out and saw her move to the right. Should I not have taken that as a sign that she heard me? Should I have waited for her to yell back at me saying "Yes, I heard you?"

    And you should never be in the same lane while passing another.

    Would you mind elaborating on this? I've never ridden on a bike lane that has multiple sub lanes.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Anderson

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    Should I not have taken that as a sign that she heard me? [/COLOR]
    No, you should not. Bike paths that I have seen, like regular roads have two lanes. If and when the lane for opposing traffic is clear, then you should proceed in passing. That's pretty much SOP when operating any vehicle.

    When using a bike lane on the street, you proceed in the next vehicle lane to your left when it is clear of traffic. Again basic good vehicle operation.

    The idea of multiple bike lanes on bike paths has not been implemented yet.

  8. #58
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blarnie View Post
    No, you should not. Bike paths that I have seen, like regular roads have two lanes. If and when the lane for opposing traffic is clear, then you should proceed in passing. That's pretty much SOP when operating any vehicle.

    When using a bike lane on the street, you proceed in the next vehicle lane to your left when it is clear of traffic. Again basic good vehicle operation.
    First, the particular bike lane is on the left side of a single vehicle lane. To the left of the bike lane is a median strip. The median and the bike lane are separated by concrete blocks. In other words, the opposing bike lane is on the other side of the median (i.e. inaccessible).

    Second, the bike lane itself is easily wide enough for two bikes to ride side by side. I ride there pretty much daily. Slower bikes riding on the right and the faster ones passing on the left is very, very common there.

    Third, in case it's not clear, there is no "next vehicle lane" to my left in this case.

    Do you still believe I should not have attempted to overtake that cyclist?
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Anderson

  9. #59
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    Honestly, I think a differentiation between wearing 1 earbud and 2 earbud should be made in this discussion. Those of you who say that riding with earbuds (I'm assuming that you mean in both ears due to the use of the plural) : are you referring to those who wear them in both ears, or are you including those who only wear them in one ear in your generalizations? Not trying to provoke anything; this is a legitimate question for this discussion.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by blarnie View Post
    Calling out doesn't absolve you of responsibility of being the vehicle coming from behind. Either pass with enough room to do so safely or don't pass. It doesn't matter what the rider in front of you can or cannot hear. Earbuds are not the issue in your example. Passing to close to another ride is unsafe on your part.
    Blarnie, earbuds were the issue.

    In both instances the other riders were completely alienated from the environment. I had plenty of room to pass safely and used it.

    Don't act like you were there.
    Last edited by SKV11000; 09-24-13 at 10:15 AM.
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  11. #61
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrictenor1 View Post
    Honestly, I think a differentiation between wearing 1 earbud and 2 earbud should be made in this discussion. Those of you who say that riding with earbuds (I'm assuming that you mean in both ears due to the use of the plural) : are you referring to those who wear them in both ears, or are you including those who only wear them in one ear in your generalizations? Not trying to provoke anything; this is a legitimate question for this discussion.
    That would be kinda like riding with one eye closed. Not saying it cant be done, just another device to keep your mind off the road. IMO

  12. #62
    Me and the cat... Pamestique's Avatar
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    I am an old time roadie... been riding since the 70's and had gone across this country several times. I've noticed within the last few years - the lack of road courtesy... I have my reasons why but that's not important. Just know there is a reason for one to annouce their presence, to call out hazards, to pass safely and to politely share the road or path/trail with everyone else.

    Apparently there is this notion not to call out passing because YELLING just scares people... why are you yelling? As I am passing, I say in a normal, calm voice "I am on your left, stay where you are..." I never get a startled reaction and I generally get a "Thank you!" in return. I will also say (if applicable) "I am on your left... 3 riders back" to let the walker/rider know to pay attention. As a rider myself I HATE, just hate, to be almost knocked off my bike by someone who thinks he's riding the Tour De France on a bike path and goes whizzing by me without a sound and I might myself have been moving towards the left...

    Also I for one appreciate it when people point out hazards. Now personally I do not call it out verbally as I don't know if anyone is behind me to hear but I always point out hazards with my hands and hope somene is watching. In 2005, I was seriously injured when the rider in front of me did not point out a road hazard, I could not see it until too late and crashed.

    As to the earbud thing... I stopped worrying about it as nothing I do or say will stop people... just causes me to ride with caution and pay attention so I know who out there is not paying attention to me or anyone else...
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  13. #63
    de oranje Jan Feetz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
    As to the earbud thing... I stopped worrying about it as nothing I do or say will stop people... just causes me to ride with caution and pay attention so I know who out there is not paying attention to me or anyone else...
    OK, I'm really worried about it now.....Yesterday, while riding north on PCH over Anaheim Bay. I came upon a group of riders, and one of them drifted into me after I called out "on your left" multiple times. He struck me forcing me into traffic and fortunately, I was able to keep control of my bike, otherwise I would have been killed. The rider crashed and caused two others to go down as well. Thankfully no one was seriously injured. Turns out they were all wearing buds. The rider mentioned he did not hear my call out.
    "fietser tijdens de week, wielrenner op Zaterdag en Zondag"

  14. #64
    Senior Member RIRview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blarnie View Post
    Except for assuming.

    This whole deal about calling "on your left" is ridiculous. Plain and simple. It is much safer to not call anything. Especially in crowded conditions such as the MUP. It is startling to other riders or walkers, etc. to hear someone yelling from behind. There is already an expectation of traffic passing and yelling only deviates from that.

    There is also an assinine entitlement to the idea that because you're going faster than someone else, yelling at them to beware of your presence is deemed proper. It is not. It's poor form.

    Just pass them with safe space in a calm quiet unsettled and non-spasmodic fashion. It is the responsibility of the vehicle coming from behind to proceed safely. Not for the person being passed to see behind themselves. And you should never be in the same lane while passing another.

    And while were on the subject of yelling at others while riding. Enough with calling out all the **** in the road. I just cannot stand a group ride with someone who calls out every last g-damn thing in the road. Shut up! Just shut up!

    It's distracting and annoying.

    I know the road is f'd up. There are potholes everywhere, glass and nails in abundance and you better believe I'm stopping for the light.

    Wow...did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? What's with the grumpiness?

    Yeah, on group rides we are aware that there are debris and potholes. What we don't know is where the debris and potholes are....hence the reason for calling them out.

  15. #65
    Senior Member Mansram01's Avatar
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    Going back to the subject. I do wear ear buds and I have no issues hearing traffic or other cyclists. Granted, I'm not blasting my music. My headset also allows me to hear text messages should there be an emergency at home. I don't expect approval from most here but I've ridden thousands of miles safely. I can hear cars approaching from the rear. I don't think it's for everyone. Not everyone can walk and chew gum at the same time. Some of us struggle with situational awareness.

    In high traffic sections where I have to be extra vigilant, I will remove my left side ear bud just to make sure I don't miss anything.

    As for passing people, I don't like to yell "LEFT" or "ON YOUR LEFT" because they only end up turning into me. I go wide with plenty of room around them. If it's a narrow path, only then will I announce myself. Riding is situational and above all common sense.

    I totally understand Blarnie's grip just not the perceived hostility. Relax buddy. Just say'n.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansram01 View Post
    I totally understand Blarnie's gripe just not the perceived hostility. Relax buddy. Just say'n.
    F that noise. Most people are A holes. They are walking or riding disappointment. Ready to meet the low bar. Relaxing only opens yourself up to greater mental anguish than necessary. I only wish people were forced into a "boot camp" prior to being allowed into society. We would be rid of the girlish notion of be being civil to those that don't deserve it. The great number of washouts could form their only colony and call it Canada 2.

  17. #67
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Blarnie, plese remember what they once said about assuming in that Saturday Night Live sketch I believe it was,

    You may think it's goofy to yell, "on your left!", but there were indeed a bunch of people who couldn't even hear THAT...

    It doesn't matter who could have been killed in traffic even, as bad as that is, the poster or the riders with earbuds.

    The fact of the matter is that in practically any locale wearing headphones or earbuds, or even a pair of Altec A7 Voice of the Theatre speakers on rollerskates duct taped to your ears is NOT LEGAL because it prevents you from hearing the vital cues around you and also distracts your attention from other vehicles. Not to mention a few people might have fused neck vertebrae and can't look back or are just not even paying attention to look before proceeding...but there you have it.

    Do I want more deaths by doofusses? Certainly NOT.

    Yell, don't yell, the riders never even looked to see traffic behind them and even if the poster was going too fast the others did not have any proper reaction time because of their impairment.

    I wouldn't be concerned about being startled, I'd like to know something is coming and again, our poster was showing the courtesy of forewarning.

    If the other party was breaking the law, their position of defense is diminished or nullified in a legal argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by blarnie View Post
    Except for assuming.

    This whole deal about calling "on your left" is ridiculous. Plain and simple. It is much safer to not call anything. Especially in crowded conditions such as the MUP. It is startling to other riders or walkers, etc. to hear someone yelling from behind. There is already an expectation of traffic passing and yelling only deviates from that.

    There is also an assinine entitlement to the idea that because you're going faster than someone else, yelling at them to beware of your presence is deemed proper. It is not. It's poor form.

    Just pass them with safe space in a calm quiet unsettled and non-spasmodic fashion. It is the responsibility of the vehicle coming from behind to proceed safely. Not for the person being passed to see behind themselves. And you should never be in the same lane while passing another.

    And while were on the subject of yelling at others while riding. Enough with calling out all the **** in the road. I just cannot stand a group ride with someone who calls out every last g-damn thing in the road. Shut up! Just shut up!

    It's distracting and annoying.

    I know the road is f'd up. There are potholes everywhere, glass and nails in abundance and you better believe I'm stopping for the light.
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  18. #68
    Gr8 day 4 hill repeats JustMe's Avatar
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    So I guess all the anti earbud advocates here never drive a car with the windows rolled up and the radio on. Is that the case????

    The reason the regulations concerning the use of headphones were in-acted back in the 60s is because drivers, usually teenagers, would wear stereo headphones which, at that time, were made with muffs to eliminate ambient noise to improve the fidelity of the music. Auto stereo systems hadn't evolved to the level they are today. But, as pointed out by a few, todays earbuds actually let you hear ambient noise pretty well as longs as the volume level is kept within reasonable db levels. In fact, some of the bluetooth headsets will open a mic to exterior sound actually amplifying ambient noise when the audio signal is off.

    Laws that remain on the books about headphone use are largely antiquated and obsolete in reality, but unfortunately the regulators rarely ever get rid of obsolete laws, they just make new ones to obfuscate reason and rationale.

  19. #69
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe View Post
    So I guess all the anti earbud advocates here never drive a car with the windows rolled up and the radio on. Is that the case????

    The reason the regulations concerning the use of headphones were in-acted back in the 60s is because drivers, usually teenagers, would wear stereo headphones which, at that time, were made with muffs to eliminate ambient noise to improve the fidelity of the music. Auto stereo systems hadn't evolved to the level they are today. But, as pointed out by a few, todays earbuds actually let you hear ambient noise pretty well as longs as the volume level is kept within reasonable db levels. In fact, some of the bluetooth headsets will open a mic to exterior sound actually amplifying ambient noise when the audio signal is off.

    Laws that remain on the books about headphone use are largely antiquated and obsolete in reality, but unfortunately the regulators rarely ever get rid of obsolete laws, they just make new ones to obfuscate reason and rationale.
    CA has limits on how loud your car stereo can be while you're driving.
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    Does the ignore feature just replace all of the poster's text with "Said something stupid" because that would be awesome.
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  20. #70
    Gr8 day 4 hill repeats JustMe's Avatar
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    That has to do with volume levels that are offensive to others like the levels of bass being created that can be heard fifty feet from the source.

  21. #71
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe View Post
    So I guess all the anti earbud advocates here never drive a car with the windows rolled up and the radio on. Is that the case????
    Driving a car with the windows up and radio volume high is not a good comparison. A driver is legs are not spinning at 80-90 rpm and their cardiovascular system is not working at 70-85% of max HR for an extended period of time.

  22. #72
    Gr8 day 4 hill repeats JustMe's Avatar
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    Really?? Maybe you would share the objectively verifiable factual information that demonstrates the analogy to driving a car with the windows rolled up and the radio on is inaccurate, or that cadence and/or cardio-respiratory function adversely influences the ability to distinguish signal from noise to improve, what has been termed by others, situational awareness.

  23. #73
    "Lo sceriffo" NutnBoltman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe View Post
    Really?? Maybe you would share the objectively verifiable factual information that demonstrates the analogy to driving a car with the windows rolled up and the radio on is inaccurate, or that cadence and/or cardio-respiratory function adversely influences the ability to distinguish signal from noise to improve, what has been termed by others, situational awareness.
    Its your analogy, not mine. From some of the posters here, ear buds do adversely effect other riders. It may not effect the user, but it certainly unsafe to other riders....a true lack of consideration.

  24. #74
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    The anti ear bud crowd is the same as the helmet mirror crowd. If you don't agree with them you're unsafe.

  25. #75
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    Personally, I don't feel less safe with them on or off. Now that I know they are illegal here in CA, I probably won't use them though. Quick thought though: I can hear WAY more on my bike with my (not noise canceling) earbuds on than I can in my car with the music up and the windows up. HOWEVER, I can see the point about being safe to other riders, particularly on paths and such.

    2cents.

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