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  1. #1
    genec genec's Avatar
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    San Diego Regional Bike Plan to 2050


  2. #2
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    $200 million for cycling infrastructure. Woo hoo!
    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    So Tom only hires people that are nutty? Is part of the requirement to be a moderator on this site is that you have to be nuts??
    Forum Guidelines *click here*

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    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Why is it so bleeping expensive?

    Most of it (didn't read the doc) is probably just striping roads... how much flipping money should that cost?

    Crazy.

  4. #4
    Pedo Grande Popeyecahn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    Why is it so bleeping expensive?

    Most of it (didn't read the doc) is probably just striping roads... how much flipping money should that cost?

    Crazy.
    Maybe in this short article has a summary of some of the improvements (no it's not just striping...):

    http://www.lajollalight.com/2013/10/...-in-the-works/
    And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late
    I'm over the rails and out of the race...

  5. #5
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    It's not just painting bike lanes. They've also got awarness and educational campaigns in the budget along with quite a bit of infrastructure work.

    "The Plan presents an interconnected network of bicycle corridors that would enable residents to bicycle with greater safety, directness, and convenience within and between major regional destinations and activity centers. The regional network consists of a combination of standard bicycle facilities, including Class I bike paths, Class II bike lanes, and Class III bike routes which are described and depicted in greater detail in Table 3.3. The Plan also proposes two facility types that are not defined as bikeways by the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) – bicycle boulevards and cycle tracks. These two facility types will serve as demonstration projects to study their potential to provide greater safety and comfort to bicyclists."
    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    So Tom only hires people that are nutty? Is part of the requirement to be a moderator on this site is that you have to be nuts??
    Forum Guidelines *click here*

  6. #6
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    But TWO HUNDRED MILLION! Give it to me and I'll get it done for $50M and retire on the rest.

    I guess it's probably over the life of the plan, which is through 2050, so it's less bad than it sounds. I started reading the doc. and got distracted by work. I guess I'd say if you want to increase the number of casual cyclists, you need more class 1 but that sort of thing just leads motorists to think that bikes have a place and it's not the road, so I'm torn. I guess I like Class 3 routes, as long as there is room I'm good! And of course, they're the cheapest. Class 1 bike paths seem to always get designated multi-use, so stand by for strollers, roller blades, dogs on long leashes and groups of kids walking across the entire lane.

  7. #7
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
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    well at least my kid's kid will enjoy those fancy painted lanes in 2050.......

  8. #8
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Waste of money. We'll have the roads to ourselves as well either run out of gas or have flying cars!

  9. #9
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    But TWO HUNDRED MILLION! Give it to me and I'll get it done for $50M and retire on the rest.

    I guess it's probably over the life of the plan, which is through 2050, so it's less bad than it sounds. I started reading the doc. and got distracted by work. I guess I'd say if you want to increase the number of casual cyclists, you need more class 1 but that sort of thing just leads motorists to think that bikes have a place and it's not the road, so I'm torn. I guess I like Class 3 routes, as long as there is room I'm good! And of course, they're the cheapest. Class 1 bike paths seem to always get designated multi-use, so stand by for strollers, roller blades, dogs on long leashes and groups of kids walking across the entire lane.
    Class I works in remote areas, the SART out here in San Bernardino is awesome, whereas in populated areas where its built as a centerpiece to infrastructure (parks) it fails. I haven't rode the OC SART in years, but last time parts of it were stop and go for miles avoiding foot traffic.

  10. #10
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
    the OC SART in years, but last time parts of it were stop and go for miles avoiding foot traffic.
    Come on now, lower SART is still pretty excellent and I have NEVER been in stop and go "traffic" even down by the beach on a Saturday.

    My main gripe about bike routes or bike lanes is that they suddenly and randomly end... like what? I can pedal here but not here? Seems silly.

    This curve on State College here... there's a class 2 south of Lambert and class 2 once you get up to whatever that next street is called, but in between you're serious frogger material with everybody flooring it at the light... etc. Further complicating things (going N on State College through Lambert) is that the right two lanes turn but the second right turn lane has the option of going straight. So cyclists HAVE to take that second lane in order to not get flattened... resulting in more revving to get by in that section where there's no bike lane.

    Oh well, at the rate people are driving we'll be out of gas by 2050 and we'll have the whole flipping road to ourselves. Can't wait!

  11. #11
    Senior Member tunavic's Avatar
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    I've ridden SART from Yorba Linda to the beach on weekdays and it was pretty lonely. I've also done the same ride on an early Saturday AM and it was mostly full of cyclists. I enjoyed it both times.

    Funny thing........I've never ridden SART in my own backyard

  12. #12
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Maybe it was a anomaly but there was tons of walking traffic in Yorba Linda and in Costa Mesa (by the soccer fields). I wasn't so much that there was a lot of foot traffic, but that they took up both lanes and wouldn't move in time..
    @tunavic - the SART in San Bernardino is pretty nice, not the most scenic but its a great 40 mile training loop.

  13. #13
    Senior Member tunavic's Avatar
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    @furiousferret I'll try it some time soon. RWBTC used to do rides there every Friday at about 5:30 PM but I think now that it's getting darker earlier it's been shelved till Spring.

    Are you a member of any of the clubs in town?

  14. #14
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tunavic View Post
    @furiousferret I'll try it some time soon. RWBTC used to do rides there every Friday at about 5:30 PM but I think now that it's getting darker earlier it's been shelved till Spring.

    Are you a member of any of the clubs in town?
    Right now just the Tri Club though I will probably join up with Team Redlands this Spring.

  15. #15
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    $200M seems like a lot until you remember it's over 36 years. Or compare it to the $214B Regional Transportation Plan.

  16. #16
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    Why is it so bleeping expensive?

    Most of it (didn't read the doc) is probably just striping roads... how much flipping money should that cost?

    Crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
    $200 million for cycling infrastructure. Woo hoo!
    My 2 cents (out of $200M). I like to see money spent on bike infrastructure, and I am sure some of it will be cool and useful. I have seen waste, and one particular bit of that caused me considerable grief, which I passed on to a certain Dan Martin of SANDAG. Sadly, after reading the relevant section of the plan I see that my grievance was ignored, and the situation is still waste as usual.

    Bike Lockers. These are a good idea, in principle. The way the project was, and is, implemented is incredibly wasteful. It started when I first started to commute by Metrolink. I had rented a bike locker at the Tustin Metrolink station for $15/mo. I would drive from home to the Oceanside Station, pick up the bike at the Tustin locker, where I also stored a pump and spares, and ride to work. As the weather warmed, and I got a road bike, I attempted to rent a SANDAG locker at Oceanside station, only to be told that they wouldn't rent to me since I commuted by Metrolink, which was not a SANDAG agency, and that the lockers were for Coaster/Sprinter Riders only. That generated the first of a rather heated exchange between me and said Mr. Martin. The reply was that it was never the policy to deny access to Metrolink riders. In fact there were no vacancies.

    I suspect that the no Metrolink policy (which was abandoned as soon as I complained) was an attempt to hide the fact that there were “no vacancies.” Here is where it gets interesting, and points out the impending waste of money. The “official” occupancy rate of the bike lockers at most Coaster and Sprinter stations is 100%. The actual occupancy rate is closer to 10%. Why? The lockers are assigned for free with only a $25 key deposit required. The locker I was renting in Tustin was $15/mo, and I got to provide my own lock. If people are not paying a monthly fee, there is no incentive to actually use the lockers, and most go "functionally vacant".

    I took a ride on my new road bike to Sorrento Valley, hitting all Coaster stations on the way, and lodging small scraps of paper in the doors of all of the lockers that would fall out if opened. I did that same ride the next three Saturdays, and checked to see how many of the lockers were used. That is how I came up with the 10% figure.

    SANDAG intends to spend more money (about $5-6k for purchase and installation of each double compartment unit) on additional lockers that are not necessary. They could, as I have suggested in numerous emails and phone calls with Dan Martin at SANDAG [ (619) 699-6987, E-mail:dan.martin@sandag.org],<wink wink, nudge nudge.> start charging $10/ mo for the lockers. This would in no way defray the cost of the lockers, but it would insure that those who claim lockers, then give up the New Year’s resolutions to actually ride their bikes to work, send the keys back in.

    In Orange County, the lockers are controlled by the individual cities the stations are located in. Irvine, which has a free locker policy, like SANDAG, also has “no vacancy”.

    Mr Martin has not heard from me in a while, since the introduction of the Bike Car program on Metrolink made it more convenient to take my bike on the train. Still, I see that they intend to go forward with the boondoggle of purchasing more lockers, when charging a nominal fee will eliminate the need for it. The cost of collecting the fee will probably be met by the fee itself. The major reason for charging the fee is to insure access to the lockers to those who will actually use them, without wasting money on more lockers, that will be taken by more of those who will not use them.
    Last edited by CommuteCommando; 10-07-13 at 10:31 AM.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  17. #17
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    I guess I like Class 3 routes, as long as there is room I'm good! And of course, they're the cheapest. Class 1 bike paths seem to always get designated multi-use, so stand by for strollers, roller blades, dogs on long leashes and groups of kids walking across the entire lane.
    +1. I have instituted a personal policy of stubbornly refusing to call Bike Paths MUPs'. I like the Bike Paths on my commute because they allow me to bypass some hellacioulsy long traffic signals. Money spent on Class 1's that will be given silly restrictions like 10 mph speed limits is worse than wasteful. If bike money is to be spent on it, make it bike useful.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  18. #18
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
    I like to see money spent on bike infrastructure, and I am sure some of it will be cool and useful. I have seen waste...
    I guess that's my overall impression is that they'll spend 200 million and we'll get 30 million worth of actually useful expenditures. I'm making up the numbers of course.

    I do appreciate the effort though, and that there IS an effort. I'm still trying to work my way back to San Diego... I'll get it done one of these days.

  19. #19
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Yeah, that is one personal experience of waste, but there are others. Roundabouts is another. Take a concept that works, like a four way stop, and "improve" it with a roundabout. Sure, the roundabout slows the traffic a little less than a four way stop, but at often 20x the cost, and in situations where if you want to go faster, there is often a secondary a block or two over.

    Here is another example. Starting at mile 0.09 and going to mile 0.65 with a small section of surface street where it crosses the RR track, is a Bike Path that parallels a street that is a really good class III that almost all cyclist use instead of the path. At mile 1.23 is a proposed $800k roundabout. At mile 1.85, to get back on the "rail trail", you must turn left off a heavily traveled class II, get on the path at mile 2.09, which ends at mile 2.8, then turn right back to the class II you had turned off of. (This one isn't so bad since I used it to take the six year old grandkid riding.)

    http://ridewithgps.com/routes/3497027

    EDIT added shout out the the LBS where I got my new Masi Gran Criterium, about 100m north of the corner at mile .77
    Last edited by CommuteCommando; 10-08-13 at 10:07 AM.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
    Yeah, that is one personal experience of waste, but there are others. Roundabouts is another. Take a concept that works, like a four way stop, and "improve" it with a roundabout. Sure, the roundabout slows the traffic a little less than a four way stop, but at often 20x the cost, and in situations where if you want to go faster, there is often a secondary a block or two over.
    They may be expensive but they have been proven to lead to quite dramatic reductions in fatal accidents
    http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencou..._sa_12_005.htm

    compare the 33,000 people killed every yr in US to the under 2,000 killed in the UK where roundabouts are prevalent. Difficult to compare the two I know but if you even up populations still about a third of the US total. SO well worth exploring further in my view.

  21. #21
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJP View Post
    They may be expensive but they have been proven to lead to quite dramatic reductions in fatal accidents
    http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencou..._sa_12_005.htm

    compare the 33,000 people killed every yr in US to the under 2,000 killed in the UK where roundabouts are prevalent. Difficult to compare the two I know but if you even up populations still about a third of the US total. SO well worth exploring further in my view.
    Regarding the following quote; "By converting from a two-way stop control mechanism to a roundabout, a location can experience an 82 percent reduction in severe (injury/fatal) crashes and a 44 percent reduction in overall crashes.". This does not address four way stops on quiet residential side streets where some of these are being installed. The situations cited are major signalized intersections, and two way stops crossing major arteries.

    This. . .
    http://goo.gl/maps/wlK9Y was a waste of money.

    As for those on major thoroughfares. Fine. Pay for them from general road funds, not the bike way budget.

    Last edited by CommuteCommando; 10-08-13 at 03:47 PM.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  22. #22
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Just so I am not coming off as a naysayer, here are some things that would I would support money being spent on.

    *Resurface the Old Hwy 101 Bike Trail from Las Pulgas to the State Park.
    *Redo the intersection where Damon Ave crosses Mission Bay Drive to the Rose Creek Trail so that bikes can actually make it across. (Heavily used by bikes coming into Mission Bay Park/PB from the Rose Canyon Trail)
    *Widen the Rose Creek Trail.
    *Class 2 bike lanes the entire length of HWY 76 when completed through to I-15.
    *Resurfacing the Bike Trail from Via Rancho Parkway to the Lake Hodges bridge.
    *Class 3 bike routes through Rancho Santa Fe to help keep old forgetful farts like me from taking the wrong turn, as I did last time through there.
    *Resurface the upper portion of Torrey Pines inside so that more people are not tempted to bomb down the inside, and get bikes banned by State Parks.

    I am sure there are many others that I have not ridden.
    Last edited by CommuteCommando; 10-08-13 at 04:04 PM.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  23. #23
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
    This. . .http://goo.gl/maps/wlK9Y was a waste of money.
    That wasn't put there for bikes; it was to slow traffic cutting through Fire Mtn to Pacific Coast Plaza.

  24. #24
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GP View Post
    That wasn't put there for bikes; it was to slow traffic cutting through Fire Mtn to Pacific Coast Plaza.
    If I lived in Fire Mtn, I would favor closing off direct access to Wally World altogether. This has been done in some cases where projects like that bring people short-cutting through quiet neighborhoods. My wife and I recently bought in OSide, but couldn't afford Fire Mountain so bought by Mira Costa, where I favor blocking Cameo Drive to keep yahoos from blasting down my street when cutting from Rancho Del Oro to College. If not that, speed bumps like on California St. Brother in law who is retired OFD called that traffic circle stupid because the younger engineers had trouble driving the ladder truck around it. (Of course he boasted he could take it at high speed in reverse)
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  25. #25
    Float, HAMMER, jog markg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
    Just so I am not coming off as a naysayer, here are some things that would I would support money being spent on.

    *Resurface the Old Hwy 101 Bike Trail from Las Pulgas to the State Park.
    *Redo the intersection where Damon Ave crosses Mission Bay Drive to the Rose Creek Trail so that bikes can actually make it across. (Heavily used by bikes coming into Mission Bay Park/PB from the Rose Canyon Trail)
    *Widen the Rose Creek Trail.
    *Class 2 bike lanes the entire length of HWY 76 when completed through to I-15.
    *Resurfacing the Bike Trail from Via Rancho Parkway to the Lake Hodges bridge.
    *Class 3 bike routes through Rancho Santa Fe to help keep old forgetful farts like me from taking the wrong turn, as I did last time through there.
    *Resurface the upper portion of Torrey Pines inside so that more people are not tempted to bomb down the inside, and get bikes banned by State Parks.

    I am sure there are many others that I have not ridden.
    Your second bullet is in the works. Construction to start in 2015:
    http://www.keepsandiegomoving.com/Re...way_intro.aspx

    There is a community meeting this week to see the preferred plan (from email I received):
    -------------
    Please join us for the last of three community meetings on the Rose Creek Bikeway Project. Come to the open house-style meeting to see the preferred design for this important regional bikeway connection.

    Thursday, October 17, 2013
    6-8 p.m.
    Mission Bay High School Library
    2475 Grand Avenue
    San Diego, CA 92109

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