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    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    Be Careful in Leucadia/Encinitas on PCH/101

    The local sheriffs are busy warning cyclists and giving them tickets for bogus infractions, such as riding two abreast in lanes that have no bike lane, riding too far over to the left (i.e., outside of the door zone), etc. It appears that some of them don't know the law, and are interpreting it rather creatively. They are also giving tickets for "legitimate" infractions, such as failure to stop at stop signs and red lights.
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    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    They have also stopped cyclists for taking the lane when there are sharrows. From what I've heard, they interpret the sign stating "Cyclists may use full lane" to mean "they may use it if there are no cars around".
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    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    I'm not surprised. I've seen some pretty rude cyclists there since the sharrows went up, and I fear the sharrows might be removed because of this abuse.
    Just because cyclists MAY take the whole lane doesn't mean we should all treat it like a bike lane. I've seen single riders taking the entire lane with cars backed up behind them because they seem to think it's their duty now to inconvenience everyone in a car. I never had any trouble there, because I still ride frap and only use the lane when I need it (passing slower riders, evading open doors, etc.)

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    I personally am not comfortable with the whole "sharrows" thing... while riding in Ventura, through old town, we run across soem sharrows... I still stayed to the right as there was room and frankly I could not ride as fast as the cars were going... I thought if I held cars back, someone would get angry... I can see sharrows when there is no other alternative but only for a very short distance, like over a bridge or before an intersection... it's just a cheap and dangerous way for a city to afford something to cyclists... I rather pass on it altogether...
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    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    True, I still ride frap, but I appreciate the additional signs and little bicycle silhouettes on the road. Even if they're not enough to enhance a motorist's awareness, at least they're a nice cudgel for our attorneys to beat them over the head with in court if anything happens to us.

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    FRAP is a good way to get hit, because the cagers think they can squeeze by. Live longer, take the lane, especially when there are sharrows. There is no law in California barring two abreast riding.

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    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    hwy_101.jpg
    Here's an image from 101, near Chesterfield Drive, where a cyclist was stopped for not riding FRAP. The officer clearly didn't take into account the door zone. Note that in this section, if you are in decent shape, you are moving at between 25 mph and 30 mph. The ONLY place I ride is where the red line is when I'm at this location. I have no intention of being forced into the door zone by some driver who can't be bothered to get into the left lane. Note also that there are no sharrows here, nor is there a bike lane. I have avoided serious injury at least 3 times right at this location by taking the lane when clueless drivers opened their door right as I passed by.
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    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    frap.jpg
    And here's a page from a pamphlet put out by the Traffic Safe Communities Network (TSCN) in Santa Clara County In collaboration with the Trauma Center at Stanford University Medical Center, Santa Clara Police Department, Santa Clara County Office of the Sheriff, Sunnyvale Department of Public Safety, and Santa Clara County Public Health Department.

    It seems they are a bit more enlightened than the San Diego Sheriff's Department.

    Also, note that strictly adhering to "FRAP" often forces you to violate the principle, "Ride a Straight Line". Personally, I always do the latter, unless the street is clear of cars for a block or more. Dodging in and out of cars just to adhere to FRAP is a sure way to get yourself mowed down. I know most of you one here don't do that, but people new to cycling often think FRAP is more important that riding a straight line.
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    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    Thread dumped into the A&S "rude-equals-right" cesspool in 3... 2... 1...

  10. #10
    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    FRAP is a good way to get hit, because the cagers think they can squeeze by. Live longer, take the lane, especially when there are sharrows. There is no law in California barring two abreast riding.
    +1

    Sharrows rock. They are there to remind motorists that cyclists are entitled to and should ride out of the door zone.

    Those LEOs handing out citations for riding in the sharrows need a good old fashioned dope slap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by calamarichris View Post
    Just because cyclists MAY take the whole lane doesn't mean we should all treat it like a bike lane.
    That is, in fact, what it means. Did you see bike pictograms in sharrows? They indicate the point where you are supposed to be riding.

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications...0041/10041.pdf

    The purpose of the markings is to create improved conditions for bicyclists by clarifying where they are expected to ride and to remind motorists to expect bicyclists on the road. In the absence of bicycle lanes, motorists often neglect to safely share travel lanes with bicyclists, which can compel bicyclists to ride closer to parked motor vehicles. Such a scenario can result in a dooring crash if someone opens a vehicle door as the bicyclist passes. Also, when bicyclists stay to the far right in narrow travel lanes, passing motorists often track too closely to the bicyclists. This can be unnerving for bicyclists, leaving little margin for error, and sometimes leading to crashes.

  12. #12
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    That is, in fact, what it means. Did you see bike pictograms in sharrows? They indicate the point where you are supposed to be riding.

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications...0041/10041.pdf
    +1

    I am one of those taking the entire lane on 101 through Leucadia. I actually feel much safer out there rather that in the door zone. I check my six, then get out there. If I do that it seems the cars get it. I have ridden there and seen bikes doing the FRAP and getting squeezed. There is another lane. The cars can, and do, go around, and most do not get bent.
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  13. #13
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaco View Post
    hwy_101.jpg
    Here's an image from 101, near Chesterfield Drive, where a cyclist was stopped for not riding FRAP. The officer clearly didn't take into account the door zone. Note that in this section, if you are in decent shape, you are moving at between 25 mph and 30 mph. The ONLY place I ride is where the red line is when I'm at this location. I have no intention of being forced into the door zone by some driver who can't be bothered to get into the left lane. Note also that there are no sharrows here, nor is there a bike lane. I have avoided serious injury at least 3 times right at this location by taking the lane when clueless drivers opened their door right as I passed by.
    That section in Leucadia is also the "surfboard zone". I can't tell you how many times I've ridden by when a surfer with his board under his arm suddenly turned 90 degrees to talk to someone, thus sticking the back end of his board 3 feet out into the road right in front of my bike.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
    That section in Leucadia is also the "surfboard zone". I can't tell you how many times I've ridden by when a surfer with his board under his arm suddenly turned 90 degrees to talk to someone, thus sticking the back end of his board 3 feet out into the road right in front of my bike.
    Happens all the time on PCH--from Pt. Mugu all the way to Trancas Canyon. It is especially bad on some sections of the road, especially from Neptune's Net to Leo Carrillo beach.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
    That section in Leucadia is also the "surfboard zone". I can't tell you how many times I've ridden by when a surfer with his board under his arm suddenly turned 90 degrees to talk to someone, thus sticking the back end of his board 3 feet out into the road right in front of my bike.
    I call that "getting Stooged". I once called out to one surfer "hey! Watch it Moe!" It happened to me on the San Juan Creek path heading in to Doheny. Teenaged girl had board on head when she turned to talk to her freind. I barely managed to duck under it. I doubt she under stood why I called her Moe.

    Another note on dooring. Many do not realize the scope of the danger in this. When a cyclist collides with a door, there is a high probability of the strike being to the right side of the handle bar. This will jerk the wheel hard to the right, causing the bike to lean left, throwing the rider off the bike into oncomming traffic. This is a scenario that has caused several fatalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaco View Post
    Attachment 347716
    Here's an image from 101, near Chesterfield Drive, where a cyclist was stopped for not riding FRAP. The officer clearly didn't take into account the door zone. Note that in this section, if you are in decent shape, you are moving at between 25 mph and 30 mph. The ONLY place I ride is where the red line is when I'm at this location. I have no intention of being forced into the door zone by some driver who can't be bothered to get into the left lane. Note also that there are no sharrows here, nor is there a bike lane. I have avoided serious injury at least 3 times right at this location by taking the lane when clueless drivers opened their door right as I passed by.
    Notice my contribution to the graphic. Though in the best shape in my life, I am by no means a world class athlete, and can do 25-30 here (about 2-3% down grade). I also do 15-20 on that sharrow section of 101 Leucadia.
    Last edited by CommuteCommando; 10-25-13 at 07:54 AM.
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  16. #16
    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
    Notice my contribution to the graphic. Though in the best shape in my life, I am by no means a world class athlete, and can do 25-30 here (about 2-3% down grade). I also do 15-20 on that sharrow section of 101 Leucadia.
    Couldn't see the revised graphic for some reason, but your point about surfboards is right on the money. The worst place for that where I ride is actually just north of Chesterfield, going north. There's a bike lane there, but you're going slightly uphill, along with 2 lanes of fast moving traffic. I guess the only redeeming fact is that if you run into a surfboard going 18 mph, it's not as bad as doing it going 30 mph.

    In general, I've found the San Diego Sheriff's Dept., at least in North County, to be pretty ignorant of relevant traffic guidelines as they apply to bicyclists. They seem more intent on responding to drivers who are pissed off at cyclists running stop signs than they are concerned about the real dangers we face every ride.

    That said, I'm not one of those who classes all drivers as "cagers". I've written many times that I can count really bad encounters with drivers on the fingers of two hands, over 50,000 miles of cycling in North County. The vast majority of drivers here are either neutral or go out of their way to be considerate.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaco View Post
    Couldn't see the revised graphic for some reason, but your point about surfboards is right on the money. The worst place for that where I ride is actually just north of Chesterfield, going north. There's a bike lane there, but you're going slightly uphill, along with 2 lanes of fast moving traffic. I guess the only redeeming fact is that if you run into a surfboard going 18 mph, it's not as bad as doing it going 30 mph.
    When I rode past there this morning, there were two attractive women standing in the middle of the bike lane with towels wrapped around them, changing their clothes. That seemed fine to me but 50 yards further, a guy was doing the same thing. I told him to "get the **** out of the bike lane, *******".

  18. #18
    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GP View Post
    When I rode past there this morning, there were two attractive women standing in the middle of the bike lane with towels wrapped around them, changing their clothes. That seemed fine to me but 50 yards further, a guy was doing the same thing. I told him to "get the **** out of the bike lane, *******".
    Sexist.

    I yanked a towel off a dude changing in the bikelane once. Poor guy's shrinkage en plein air on a chilly Sunday morning. The reason they step out into the bike lane is so they don't track a bunch of sand into their cars/luxury SUVs.

  19. #19
    #5639 robertkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaco View Post
    The local sheriffs are busy warning cyclists and giving them tickets for bogus infractions, such as riding two abreast in lanes that have no bike lane, riding too far over to the left (i.e., outside of the door zone), etc. It appears that some of them don't know the law, and are interpreting it rather creatively. They are also giving tickets for "legitimate" infractions, such as failure to stop at stop signs and red lights.
    The SD county Sheriff has gone on record as anti-bicycle, and believes that their interpretation of the CA vehicle code, regardless of how wrong it may be, is religious doctrine. They have publicly stated that "sharrows" are not legitimate, that the signs reminding motorists of the CA vehicle code that "bicycles may use full lane" are ambiguous, and that the word "may" doesn't mean "always" as CA law states, but rather only when no other traffic is present. Also, as with all LEOs, they think that "practicable" is a synonym for "possible".

    Of course, under CA law, if there is no signed and marked bike lane, then the entire lane of travel is a "bike lane". I've been shouted at numerous times for not riding in a non-existent bike lane by park rangers and police alike. Then again, IME, motorcycle cops seem to be the most able minded and educated of them all. Hell, I even chatted with one at a stop light while taking the lane. Then again, he was a cyclist. Go figure.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertkat View Post
    The SD county Sheriff has gone on record as anti-bicycle,
    Curious . . . any references available on the net?
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  21. #21
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaco View Post
    Curious . . . any references available on the net?
    Subscribe to San Diego Bicyclist Forum and Bike friendly North County San Diego on google groups. There are cycling advocates that meet with SDSO reps and report their meetings to those groups.

  22. #22
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertkat View Post


    The SD county Sheriff has gone on record as anti-bicycle,
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaco View Post
    Curious . . . any references available on the net?
    My anecdotal $.02 on this. I have had run ins with LEO's who were, maybe not so much anti-bike, but pretty anti-civilian using the bike as an excuse. The transit rentacops patrolling Oceanside transit center and all the SD Trolley stations see a bike and focus in looking for the least little infraction in order tho throw their weight around. I once rode my bike on the platform because I was running late and almost missed my Metrolink, when up comes running a NCTD rentacop gets on the train and tries to order me off. The doors started closing, as he barely made it off in time he was threatening to call ahead and have me pulled off. I never heard anything.

    Riding the San Diego Century in June I was given a brush by and "get off the road" by some Dick in a Mercedes. I passed him and got to the turn onto El Montevedo where a CHP Motor Cop was working the event, and told him about the drivers aggressive behavior, pointing him out. Ol' Ponch threatened to write me up.
    Last edited by CommuteCommando; 10-28-13 at 01:07 PM.
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  23. #23
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertkat View Post

    Of course, under CA law, if there is no signed and marked bike lane, then the entire lane of travel is a "bike lane". I've been shouted at numerous times for not riding in a non-existent bike lane by park rangers and police alike.


    Of course, this is a good argument against special lane markings... the whole "you should be in a bike lane" argument.

  24. #24
    #5639 robertkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    FRAP is a good way to get hit, because the cagers think they can squeeze by. Live longer, take the lane, especially when there are sharrows. There is no law in California barring two abreast riding.
    This. I was inches from being a skid mark the other day. Except I knew that the road I was on has traffic that is always 10 - 15 mph above the posted limit, so I decided against taking the lane at that time. Had I been taking the lane, I'm quite certain I wouldn't be typing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaco View Post
    Curious . . . any references available on the net?

    What GP said. I don't know if minutes from community meetings are available online, and I'm too tired to dig through old emails right now. In the past several years, they have been at community planning meetings to speak out and discourage bicycle infrastructure improvements. At a recent meeting in Encinitas, they were there to take part in the discussion. One of the officers, a sergeant, argued that the sharrows/BMUFL signs are dynamic and the word "may" is ambiguous. They only apply in certain conditions, and that if there are no cars parked along the road, you have to ride in the parking spaces, not in the traffic lanes. The other officer stated that riding two abrest at any time is illegal and people will be cited for it.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    They were ticketing people riding in the "Bike the Coast" charity ride (co-sponsored by SDBC) today. I get it that large rides are a pain and belive me some people need a citation -but he was camped on a side street by the first sag stop writing stop signs violations. This was way off 101 - where people were riding like jerks and creating hazards that were in need of a citation.
    Last edited by Mike F; 11-02-13 at 04:28 PM.
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