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  1. #51
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    We all kinda agree that Mr. Marin made some bad decisions. The real issue for me is that I kinda feel the Riverside Sheriff captain in search of S&R made a judgement call that is questionable. If a professional rescue operation had been mounted right after his wife contacted authorities, he might have made it. Let us all wait for the autopsy, then we'll see where this goes. If the autopsy can pinpoint how and when he died, then maybe we can then see if Mr. Marin's family have a basis to sue Riverside County.

    And anybody who has experience in the back country knows that people make dicey decisions all the time. If I have a penny for all the times I have seen people unprepared in the mountains, I'll be stupendously wealthy. It would be nice though to have competent and able S&R teams to work those rescue details.
    It is very easy to second guess the would be rescuers.

    They are trained to rescue people and to put their own lives on the line.

    The victim's wife is understandably upset and angry. That, however, does not change the fact that Mr. Marin put his own life at risk. Perhaps, given what Mrs. Marin must have known about weather conditions, she should have kept her husband from getting on his bike and riding.

    Don't get me wrong, this is a tragic situation--there is no denying that. Ultimately, however, we are (or should be) responsible for our own action.

    That, Jed, IMHO is the key issue here.
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  2. #52
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    I lived in Murrieta for 2 years and I have biked, hiked and off roaded in my truck many times on the exact trails this man took and died on.

    In my opinion the "search and rescue" teams should be ashamed of themselves and should seriously consider finding new jobs.

    Those trails are EASILY passable in the wet weather both in a 4x4 and on foot. The elevation is low so temps are not a problem.

    What exactly do search and rescue teams train and get paid to do ?

    I no longer live in that area but if I had known about this case at the time I would have called my friends who would have gladly gone up there in their 4x4's and searched for free to help these people out.

    At the end of the day the responsibility for ones own being lies with ones self. It sounds like the cyclist suffered either a medical issue or some type of injury from a fall and was thus unable to self rescue.

    However, if I was one of those cowardly "search and rescue" guys I would resign and find a job indoors.

  3. #53
    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
    It is very easy to second guess the would be rescuers.

    They are trained to rescue people and to put their own lives on the line.

    The victim's wife is understandably upset and angry. That, however, does not change the fact that Mr. Marin put his own life at risk. Perhaps, given what Mrs. Marin must have known about weather conditions, she should have kept her husband from getting on his bike and riding.

    Don't get me wrong, this is a tragic situation--there is no denying that. Ultimately, however, we are (or should be) responsible for our own action.

    That, Jed, IMHO is the key issue here.
    +1

    You're being way too hard on the Sheriff's and SAR folks IMO, Jed.
    The guy went looking for adventure, and he found it. I've engaged in three foolhardy idylls turned ordeals too, but not while I had a wife and kids to support. Nor did I blame the Coast Guard, bears, or any government or volunteer organization for my own stupid choices resulting in near-death. Here in SoCal, it's very easy to forget how fragile we are and how unforgiving Nature can be.
    The wife is upset and lashing out, that's understandable; and saying anything remotely negative about the dead is taboo for some reason, but that doesn't mean we should all slam the Sheriffs Dept and SAR.
    If we can't be trusted to care enough for our own lives and the welfare of our families, perhaps the Sheriffs Dept should be compassionate enough to close off all trails whenever there's any chance of rain in the forecast?

    The fact that someone is joining the name-calling internet lynchmob should be indication enough that you're not completely in the right here.
    Last edited by CbadRider; 03-07-14 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Not gonna go there.

  4. #54
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    It shouldn't make a difference in whether they respond or not but are the sheriff SAR teams paid employees or volunteers?

  5. #55
    Senior Member Gallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calamarichris View Post
    +1

    You're being way too hard on the Sheriff's and SAR folks IMO, Jed.
    The guy went looking for adventure, and he found it. I've engaged in three foolhardy idylls turned ordeals too, but not while I had a wife and kids to support. Nor did I blame the Coast Guard, bears, or any government or volunteer organization for my own stupid choices resulting in near-death. Here in SoCal, it's very easy to forget how fragile we are and how unforgiving Nature can be.
    The wife is upset and lashing out, that's understandable; and saying anything remotely negative about the dead is taboo for some reason, but that doesn't mean we should all slam the Sheriffs Dept and SAR.
    If we can't be trusted to care enough for our own lives and the welfare of our families, perhaps the Sheriffs Dept should be compassionate enough to close off all trails whenever there's any chance of rain in the forecast?

    The fact that someone is joining the name-calling internet lynchmob should be indication enough that you're not completely in the right here.
    politely agree to disagree with you on this one Chris. Normally I agree with your POV but not on this.

    "The guy went looking for adventure, and he found it"

    While I do not agree with many of his decisions I can firmly state this is not what he was looking for.

    "The wife is upset and lashing out, that's understandable; and saying anything remotely negative about the dead is taboo for some reason, but that doesn't mean we should all slam the Sheriffs Dept and SAR"

    I think the wife is in grief and has a right to be upset. I choose not to slam the dead with exception to the Hitler, John Wayne Gasy and Bin Laden types. This is as a form of respect for a fellow human being not universally recognized nor employed. I am in more agreement with Tacoma on the function of SAR and have little or nothing to add to his clear point of view. This is conjecture I would guess that there were team member/members of SAR that argued to go.

    Facts that I believe are missteps from SAR LEO Sheriff whomever made the decision not to go. 1) Orange County never notified 2) Private team dispatched hours before SAR with no training and no incident of demise. 3) There was a definitive call for help not responded to. 4) His map was routed and available from the wife.

    Based on these established facts I am inclined to question the decisions of regarding this situation.

    "If we can't be trusted to care enough for our own lives and the welfare of our families, perhaps the Sheriffs Dept should be compassionate enough to close off all trails whenever there's any chance of rain in the forecast? "

    I can only hope you really don't believe that. If so were are diametrically opposed.

    "The fact that someone is joining the name-calling internet lynchmob should be indication enough that you're not completely in the right here. "

    The fact that the sidewalk guy and myself are in agreement is odd and a first but does not sway me one way or another.

    In conclusion, we can beat each other up over a pint if you want to take this further in the future. The internet is a poor place for an argument as I always win.


    Cheers
    Last edited by CbadRider; 03-07-14 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Edited quoted post
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  6. #56
    Senior Member blacknbluebikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam21fire View Post
    The OP's words must come very easy to someone who's never had to go out and do it. Until you've been there, walked the walk, and directly faced the situation...shut up.
    +1

  7. #57
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    There is an awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. By people with no experience doing any emergency services work at all. Nevermind under the particular conditions, and information that these decisions were made under.

  8. #58
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    There is an awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. By people with no experience doing any emergency services work at all. Nevermind under the particular conditions, and information that these decisions were made under.
    Monday morning quarterbacking is why internet forums were invented.

  9. #59
    so cal com John R's Avatar
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    According to Pres Enterpirse, Andres body was found on Skyline trail above Corona. Skyline is totally rideable during a rain. I don't think the Sheriffs dept is being totally honest in saying it was too muddy to get vehicles up there. It's such a shame that he died just 7 miles from the pavement. Search and Rescue personal put themselves in danger all the time. Just look at the Coast guard rescue swimmers, they jump onto freezing waters during storms to rescue boaters. If you are not willing to put yourself in harms way, maybe you should take up another line of work.
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  10. #60
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    There is an awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. By people with no experience doing any emergency services work at all. Nevermind under the particular conditions, and information that these decisions were made under.
    Since when are public employees above a little criticism? Frankly, this has been a pretty even toned discussion, not even terribly critical.

  11. #61
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    "The guy went looking for adventure, and he found it"

    While I do not agree with many of his decisions I can firmly state this is not what he was looking for.
    Strictly speaking you are correct. It is fairly certain that Mr. Marin did not go out on his birthday ride looking to die while riding.


    What is certain to us, and should have been certain to Mr. Marin and his wife, is that going out for a ride under those conditions entailed risks beyond the normal risks that we all assume when we go out riding (or engage in any other type of recreational activity).

    He went looking for an adventure and found himself in the middle of an "adventure," albeit not the one that he was planning for.

    Mr. Marin seemed to have been, as many of us who ride bikes are, a rugged individualist. I do not expect, however, that others will place their lives at risk just because I chose to take an unreasonable risk with my own life. That seems to be, to me anyway, the crux of this case.
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  12. #62
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    Since when are public employees above a little criticism? Frankly, this has been a pretty even toned discussion, not even terribly critical.
    TH, I don't think that Rebel is saying that public employees are above criticism.

    I think that what he is saying, however, is that most of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here is being expressed with people with: (a) no experience in rescue work and/or (b) incomplete information leading up to Mr. Marin's death.
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  13. #63
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
    TH, I don't think that Rebel is saying that public employees are above criticism.

    I think that what he is saying, however, is that most of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here is being expressed with people with: (a) no experience in rescue work and/or (b) incomplete information leading up to Mr. Marin's death.
    Yes, and the other side of the coin is "if you haven't done it then shut up", which I find equally unhelpful.

  14. #64
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    What we should focus on is not whether Mr. Marin made some really awful decisions re where,when and how prepared he was for his ride. My main beef is this; Did that sheriff captain made the right decision to wait till daylight before embarking on a search and rescue mission, despite Mr. Marin's desperate condition as related to the authorities by his wife? The other question is, if the wife can organise a posse of friends that set out at 3:45AM, then that sheriff captain had no business waiting till daylight.

    One thing I have learnt over and over in this life is that bright, competent, experienced and otherwise knowledgeable people sometimes make unwise decisions (so-called judgement calls). And I have a hunch that this is the case here.

    Also, I have never been on that trail, but people who have been there have posted that it is not an impossible mission to trek and attempt a rescue there even with all the rain we had.

    It is just all so sad. I do know that if it was a loved-one of mine that was in Mr. Marin's situation, I'll have organised a posse that would have marched thru the night searching for him, even if we all had to stick together in a group.
    Regards,

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  15. #65
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
    TH, I don't think that Rebel is saying that public employees are above criticism.

    I think that what he is saying, however, is that most of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here is being expressed with people with: (a) no experience in rescue work and/or (b) incomplete information leading up to Mr. Marin's death.
    Thank you for expressing that more eloquently than I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    Yes, and the other side of the coin is "if you haven't done it then shut up", which I find equally unhelpful.
    Didn't say that. But situations on the ground very often dictate operational decisions. And without knowing all the info that those making the decisions had, I would be reluctant to second guess. Is it possible the SD, said "hell, it sure is unpleasant out, let's sit around the station and play cards"? Sure, but it is very unlikely.

  16. #66
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    Thank you for expressing that more eloquently than I did.

    Didn't say that. But situations on the ground very often dictate operational decisions. And without knowing all the info that those making the decisions had, I would be reluctant to second guess. Is it possible the SD, said "hell, it sure is unpleasant out, let's sit around the station and play cards"? Sure, but it is very unlikely.
    Oops, I hit the wrong quote button, meant to hit the guy above you who +1'd the "shut up" participant. Sorry!

    Frankly, I wasn't there so I can't cast aspersions, but we should be allowed to discuss it after the fact (which we are) without people getting all belligerent about it. (which you certainly did not).

  17. #67
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Last edited by eja_ bottecchia; 03-07-14 at 05:54 PM.
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  18. #68
    so cal com John R's Avatar
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    Also, I have never been on that trail, but people who have been there have posted that it is not an impossible mission to trek and attempt a rescue there even with all the rain we had.

    It is just all so sad. I do know that if it was a loved-one of mine that was in Mr. Marin's situation, I'll have organised a posse that would have marched thru the night searching for him, even if we all had to stick together in a group.
    I've ridden Skyline many times in the rain. It's one of the few trails that holds up in the rain. It's wide and groomed. It's the road the communication companys use to do maintanance on the towers on Sierra peak. I don't know where exactly he was found. From the paved road at the bottom to Main Divide its around 8 miles.
    Last edited by PhotoJoe; 03-08-14 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Fixed quote code
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  19. #69
    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    politely agree to disagree with you on this one Chris. Normally I agree with your POV but not on this.
    "The guy went looking for adventure, and he found it"

    While I do not agree with many of his decisions I can firmly state this is not what he was looking for.
    adĚvenĚture[ad-ven-cher] noun
    1.an exciting or very unusual experience.
    2.participation in exciting undertakings or enterprises: the spirit of adventure.
    3.a bold, usually risky undertaking; hazardous action of uncertain outcome.
    4.a commercial or financial speculation of any kind; venture.
    5.Obsolete .
    a.peril; danger; risk.
    b.chance; fortune; luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Based on these established facts I am inclined to question the decisions of regarding this situation.
    There is a decent chance they made the same mistake he did, and that is to underestimate Nature and the frailty of the human body. We live in a climate paradise, and I can't remember the last time I heard of someone dying of hypothermia here. Haven't read the updates, but if that isn't what killed him, it was very likely a contributing factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    "If we can't be trusted to care enough for our own lives and the welfare of our families, perhaps the Sheriffs Dept should be compassionate enough to close off all trails whenever there's any chance of rain in the forecast? "

    I can only hope you really don't believe that. If so were are diametrically opposed.
    I don't wish for it at all, but if enough of us make Marin's bad choiceS, or if we hold public safety officials more responsible for our own safety than we hold ourselves, it will simply become like the Grand Canyon, or Mount Whitney with the stupid [though perhaps necessary?] permit-lottery, fees, signed waivers, and government oversight of our adventures. Not saying it's right or just, but neither of those have anything to do with how probable it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    In conclusion, we can beat each other up over a pint if you want to take this further in the future. The internet is a poor place for an argument as I always win.
    I'd like that very much, but I don't argue to win, only to exchange ideas and perspectives. Sometimes people walk away believing they've "beaten" me, but I reckon you're above that. You coming up here for the Vista tour, or am I coming down there to be impressed by your brewhouses? Or better yet, which one of us goes first?
    Last edited by calamarichris; 03-07-14 at 08:49 PM.

  20. #70
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calamarichris View Post
    I don't wish for it at all, but if enough of us make Marin's bad choiceS, or if we hold public safety officials more responsible for our own safety than we hold ourselves, it will simply become like the Grand Canyon, or Mount Whitney with the stupid [though perhaps necessary?] permit-lottery, fees, signed waivers, and government oversight of our adventures. Not saying it's right or just, but neither of those have anything to do with how probable it is.
    Ugh, please no. Less "security" from the government, please.

    Now what was that about beer?

  21. #71
    Unobtanium-Based Lifeform calamarichris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    Ugh, please no. Less "security" from the government, please.

    Now what was that about beer?
    If you can ever make it down here to North San Diego County one of these weekends, I've got some spectacular roads and even more spectacular breweries to show you. They're all a little bogged down by the current IPA fad IMO, but there are still some great things happening in Vista right now.

  22. #72
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    I'm getting all weepy now. *sniff*

  23. #73
    lead on macduff!
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    no mtb experience but plenty of hiking/peak-bagging experience in lots of crappy conditions. the ride/mountain will always be there tomorrow.
    i can count on one hand the times i turned around because it just wasn't worth the pre-strava "epic" hike/ride. i was always glad i turned around.
    it's one thing if you know you are fully fueled, hydrated & equipped for such a ride/hike. it's another thing if you are just trying to be a hardman.
    in crappy conditions, you have to have all your wits about you and be prepared to turn around any second-not minute. a true shame this happened.
    i'd rather be alive wrong than dead right

  24. #74
    lead on macduff!
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    Quote Originally Posted by calamarichris View Post
    If you can ever make it down here to North San Diego County one of these weekends, I've got some spectacular roads and even more spectacular breweries to show you. They're all a little bogged down by the current IPA fad IMO, but there are still some great things happening in Vista right now.
    would generally tend to agree with you but gotta say more than a few ipa's from alpine brewing co and societe brewing buck that trend. and i'll still take my fave 4 breweries from central sd co-
    alpine, alesmith, societe, thorn st (or manzanita)-vs any 4 from north county in terms of breadth, depth and quality of the offerings. canyousaysocalforumride? one for noco and one for soco to
    haggle over the details.
    i'd rather be alive wrong than dead right

  25. #75
    lead on macduff!
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    oh. and i finally had a fantastic la county beer after 50+ attempts. no...really!
    i'd rather be alive wrong than dead right

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