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  1. #1
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Could this guy have been rescued?

    So sorry to hear about the death of this rider. I think he made a terrible mistake going riding with all of the pre-storm warnings, but having said that, it looks like he could have been saved, had the Sheriff's Rescue Team been a little more industrious.

    I mean, the guy screwed up, but ...........

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...#axzz2v7J3KQBv
    Regards,

    Jed

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    Yes if you want to put unnecessary risks on the first responders. The trail he went up is rather steep in some parts and muddy and is not easy to ascend in the rain on a 4x4.

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    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    I do not know the trail in question and I know there was another thread on this that I now can't find so I've known and been thinking about this since yesterday.

    And one thing I was thinking is that in this case it is likely the only tracks and tracks easily seen would be the ones from this rider. If they had started out last night, at night, those would have been hard to follow and likely wiped out by searchers.

    If they waited until morning one ATV rider could have followed those same tracks and found the guy for sure.

    Just saying that setting out in a disorganized manner right away is not the best way to go.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
    Yes if you want to put unnecessary risks on the first responders. The trail he went up is rather steep in some parts and muddy and is not easy to ascend in the rain on a 4x4.
    I hear you, but the fact that he was found by the foot posse his wife put together, kinda bothers me. I am not saying to use ATVs, helicopters or 4x4s, but the fact that he had no serious injury and froze to death kinda screams lack of industriousness by the official search party.
    Regards,

    Jed

  5. #5
    Senior Member Gallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    I hear you, but the fact that he was found by the foot posse his wife put together, kinda bothers me. I am not saying to use ATVs, helicopters or 4x4s, but the fact that he had no serious injury and froze to death kinda screams lack of industriousness by the official search party.
    I don't think I can disagree with you. I think most of us have done something dangerous with or without assessing the risk. I do not know the area. I am wondering why either a private or public party did not dispatch on foot that night. A single hiker would have been a bad idea. But a group with good lights and communication ie cell phone and or radios might have been able to help.

    My condolences to the family on this tragic loss.
    "Are you finished and satisfied with the thread up to this point? If so, if you don't mind, I'm inclined to close it now, the quality posts have dwindled - it's circling the bowl now." BillyD

    I can't climb and do not sprint well so I over compensate with bad form and lack of endurance

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    I'm not familiar with the area, but, in Google photos, the route looks like a wide, fairly flat dirt road that should've been easily passable for 4WD vehicles even during rainstorm. I'm not sure what the Sheriff's problem was. Maybe there were mudslides/rockslides blocking the way up and they didn't want to hike up there on foot.

    Sounds like he had a head injury. Maybe the rescuers didn't realize how bad he was. A guy who's dressed for a MTB ride in a rainstorm does not freeze to death after one night in the mountains. I don't think it went much lower than 40 F that night.

    I hear you, but the fact that he was found by the foot posse his wife put together, kinda bothers me.
    That's not what the article says. The wife and a friend were able to hike up one of the trails Sunday morning after sunrise, when the rain had stopped. They weren't the ones who found him. He was found by the official rescue party a few hours later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    I hear you, but the fact that he was found by the foot posse his wife put together, kinda bothers me. I am not saying to use ATVs, helicopters or 4x4s, but the fact that he had no serious injury and froze to death kinda screams lack of industriousness by the official search party.
    Here's their official statement:

    March 2, 2014
    Skyline Drive Trail, Corona
    2014-006
    Written by Pete Carlson
    At 8:30pm on Saturday evening we got a call that a Mountain Bike Rider was lost somewhere off the Skyline Drive Trail road that goes up into the National Forest Land. This is a road that is gated so only hiking and biking are allowed on the road. The Rider had left home Saturday morning at 7am to ride to Santiago Peak which is a long day’s bike ride. It had been raining most of the day and was still raining at this time. The Sheriff had tried to drive a 4 wheel drive vehicle up the dirt road with no success. The Rider had called his Wife to say he had fallen and was not sure where he was at this time. The best we could do was put him in an 8 miles distance from a cell tower up on the ridge. With bad weather, no exact location, and no way to drive the roads the Sheriff and RMRU decided to wait until first light Sunday morning to start searching.
    By 8am March 2 we had RMRU members, Desert Search and Rescue members, the Riverside Sheriffs off-road vehicle enforcement team (ROVE), and the Sheriff’s Emergency Response Team (SERT) all at base and making assignments. It was decided to put RMRU and DSAR members in with ROVE members in Quad Vehicles and send up 5 teams on different dirt roads. While all teams where out doing assignments we got word that a motorcycle rider had found the Mountain Bike Rider at 9:45am. He was in the brush off the side of a road up near Santiago Peak and he was deceased. All teams but the one on the road he was found returned to base. That team continued up the road to meet up with the motorcycle rider.
    All personal involved in the search wish to extend our condolences to the family and friends of the Mountain Bike Rider.

    http://www.rmru.org/missions/2014/2014-006.html

  8. #8
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    The problem is twofold, its not the job for the search parties to risk their lives searching for someone, and a overestimating the harshness of the storm. The Sheriff's search leader determines what is 'dangerous conditions', and it seems every year those conditions get 'less dangerous'. There has to be some assumption of risk in these searches, that storm was not life threatening. Pretty soon they wont search unless its exactly 70 degrees with no wind.
    judging from what you post on here it seems having a powermeter has caused you to focus on ewang numbers without much a focus on developing actual fitness.

  9. #9
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    I don't think he could have been saved. There was a discrepancy about the distance of his ride, 18 v. 88 miles. It turns out to be much closer to the latter; based on his wife's description of the route, someone over at STR drew this up:

    https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...bed&dg=feature

    He started at 6am on Saturday on a climb that is tough under good conditions. I imagine the trail conditions must have been treacherous from the previous storm because 1) his progress was so slow and 2) Sheriff's and SAR said it was. Another powerful storm was imminent. He was already disoriented when he spoke to his wife at 5:15pm. Keep in mind, he was reported to SAR as being disoriented and SAR did not know his location.

    It has been reported that he had no food, no rain gear, no cold weather gear with him. Whether his disorientation at that time he called his wife was from a fall (he told his wife he fell) or from hypothermia that was already well under way, won't be known without an autopsy. Even if SAR had launched a full scale rescue attempt starting at 6pm on a stormy night, I doubt he would have still been alive by the time they found him. I'm guessing he was already hypothermic when he called his wife because he lacked clothing to keep himself warm/dry and food to keep from bonking, and because he was reportedly found on his bike (hands on grips, feet on pedals) leaning against the side of mountain with no obvious injuries other than some scratches.

    SAR are not Secret Service or military. They should not be expected to put their lives in extraordinary peril to save ours.

    What I keep asking myself is how could he not know by 2pm, 7 hours into the ride, that he was not going to finish that loop? Here is a similar strava trace. He was found near the peak elevation of that route. If he just turns around at any point from 2-4pm he would have some climbing up and down, but then almost all downhill back to Corona.

    http://www.strava.com/activities/96909862

    I feel really bad for his family. He left behind a wife and four kids.

    There is an online fund for his funeral expenses

    http://www.gofundme.com/andres-Marin


    I ride alone almost every time I mountain bike. I over-carry clothing and supplies just in case something like this happens. I never take chances on tech sections when I ride alone. I tell my wife my route and when I'll be back. If I'm not going to make it on time, I cut the ride short or find some way to get a cell signal and let her know. Still, I have learned a few things from this. I don't currently carry a whistle, mirror or bivy sac. I will very soon.

    Twice I ventured out into SoCal weather, once hiking and once biking; neither on as epic a route as Mr. Marin. Those experiences made me extra cautious about the weather. There are so many good riding days here in SoCal, to me, it is not worth the risk to ride far into the backcountry during one of our few days of stormy weather. But I still carry all that survival stuff just in case. Even if I don't need it, I may come across someone who will.

    RIP Andres.
    Last edited by cdp8; 03-05-14 at 03:12 PM. Reason: corrected time of departure

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    I'm not familiar with the area, but, in Google photos, the route looks like a wide, fairly flat dirt road .
    Skyline Drive (turns into Blackstar Canyon Rd. then into Main Divide Truck trail) climbs from Corona to Santiago Peak. It is anything but fairly flat. There are stretches that exceed 20%.
    Last edited by cdp8; 03-05-14 at 02:55 PM. Reason: correct names of roads

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    I don't think he could have been saved. There was a discrepancy about the distance of his ride, 18 v. 88 miles. It turns out to be much closer to the latter; based on his wife's description of the route, someone over at STR drew this up:

    https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...bed&dg=feature
    There is a map of his intended route(?) here: http://www.riversidesheriff.org/pres...inRouteMap.pdf There's also a picture of him leaving on the day of the incident(?), a few pages down. I see a jacket, long pants and presumably a Camelbak. It was high 40's in Corona and cooler than that up in the mountains when he left, he had to be dressed for the occasion.

    It is anything but fairly flat. There are stretches that exceed 20%.
    I used the word "flat" in geometrical sense, as in, "the roof of my house is flat (even though it's sloped at 45 degrees)". If it's as wide and flat as Google photos portray it, you can probably drive a Toyota Camry from Corona at least to Main Divide Trail.

  12. #12
    Rogue Cyclist RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    SAR are not Secret Service or military. They should not be expected to put their lives in extraordinary peril to save ours.
    RMRU is a volunteer run(and outfitted) organization so in this particular case I have to agree with your assessment.. however the Riverside County Sheriff's office is a whole other story we pay departments such as that to protect and serve, this means they put their lives on the line.. this isn't a fine print thing it's part of the obligation if you decide to become a LEO, firefighter, paramedic etc.. your career choice may very well require you to sacrifice your life, health, personal safety yada yada yada but you choose it yourself. The deceased choice of actions were faulty obviously, but in my mind so was the reaction of the Sheriff's department and I'll restrain myself now before I get into a rant about public servants no longer wishing to live up to their obligations that they're paid to do.
    "Seriously is what I want to be, so I put on spandex and show off my gear, my junk, my thing, yes my ding-a-ling."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    There is a map of his intended route(?) here: http://www.riversidesheriff.org/pres...inRouteMap.pdf There's also a picture of him leaving on the day of the incident(?), a few pages down. I see a jacket, long pants and presumably a Camelbak. It was high 40's in Corona and cooler than that up in the mountains when he left, he had to be dressed for the occasion.

    I do not see a jacket. Most mtbers, myself included wear long baggy shorts and long sleeve shirts. They offer scratch protection but little else. That is hardly gear for cold wet weather.

    "Arista said her husband was not prepared for the overnight conditions."
    "Marin was wearing only a thin shirt that he had recently purchased and cycling shorts. He ignored his wife’s advice to bring food. He had left about 6 a.m."

    http://www.pe.com/local-news/riversi...tain-biker.ece

    Conditions Sunday morning on Maple Springs Truck Trail (nearby to Main Divide):

    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...d-3-1-14/page8

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdp8 View Post
    I do not see a jacket. Most mtbers, myself included wear long baggy shorts and long sleeve shirts. They offer scratch protection but little else. That is hardly gear for cold wet weather.

    "Arista said her husband was not prepared for the overnight conditions."
    "Marin was wearing only a thin shirt that he had recently purchased and cycling shorts. He ignored his wife’s advice to bring food. He had left about 6 a.m."
    If he were dressed and equipped as you're describing, he must have been extremely hardy (if not to say masochistic). Trying to do a MTB ride with 6000'+ of climbing during rainstorm, with weather in the 40's, in a thin shirt, cycling shorts and without any food sounds like an extreme form of punishment. Personally, I probably would've turned around after a couple of hours at most.

    I'll go on a limb and guess that the wife was exaggerating his unpreparedness to motivate the rescuers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    If he were dressed and equipped as you're describing, he must have been extremely hardy (if not to say masochistic). Trying to do a MTB ride with 6000'+ of climbing during rainstorm, with weather in the 40's, in a thin shirt, cycling shorts and without any food sounds like an extreme form of punishment. Personally, I probably would've turned around after a couple of hours at most.

    I'll go on a limb and guess that the wife was exaggerating his unpreparedness to motivate the rescuers.
    He was trying to squeeze the ride in between two storm fronts. When starting a long hard climb in those conditions, I wouldn't be wearing anymore than he was, but I'd sure have something warm and dry for the way down (or in case something happened). I can't speak to whether or not Mrs. Marin was exaggerating or not. I never met Mr. Marin. However, I have met a lot of unprepared MTB'ers in the back country; I was one of them when I first started. So from my frame of reference, it is very easy for me to believe she accurately reported the facts.

    I agree on turning around. That's was really bothers me about this case. Why didn't he just turn around?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    I'm not familiar with the area, but, in Google photos, the route looks like a wide, fairly flat dirt road that should've been easily passable for 4WD vehicles even during rainstorm. I'm not sure what the Sheriff's problem was. Maybe there were mudslides/rockslides blocking the way up and they didn't want to hike up there on foot.

    Sounds like he had a head injury. Maybe the rescuers didn't realize how bad he was. A guy who's dressed for a MTB ride in a rainstorm does not freeze to death after one night in the mountains. I don't think it went much lower than 40 F that night.



    That's not what the article says. The wife and a friend were able to hike up one of the trails Sunday morning after sunrise, when the rain had stopped. They weren't the ones who found him. He was found by the official rescue party a few hours later.
    No, that is not true. It now appears that the incompetents at the Riverside County Sheriff's Dept. did not inform anybody at the OCFD or the OC Sheriff's Dept. And the second to the last paragraph in the attached article contradicts your point re being found by a member of the official party.

    I can't find the article now, but I remember distinctly reading that his wife put a posse together that went out thru the night. If the wife could do that, then what are we paying the darn rescue team for? I won't go ahead and say the guy could have made it, but the RCSD did screw up, in my view.

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/m...ff-search.html.
    Last edited by Jed19; 03-05-14 at 04:01 PM.
    Regards,

    Jed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post

    I can't find the article now, but I remember distinctly reading that his wife put a posse together that went out thru the night. If the wife could do that, then what are we paying the darn rescue team for? I won't go ahead and say the guy could have made it, but the RCSD did screw up, in my view.

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/m...ff-search.html.
    Here is a different article from the register:

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/m...iff-wrote.html

    Mrs. Marin and her friends did not go out through the night. They waited until a couple of hours before dawn. They left at 3:45 am (civil twilight was 5:53am) and split into several groups. Someone from one of those groups found him at about 9:45am.

    It took six hours to find him on foot, with about two thirds of that being after sunrise. Let's say Sheriff and SAR search parties left on foot at 7:00 p.m., an hour after the Sheriff says the call came in. The earliest Mr. Marin could have been found would have been 1am, and due the darkness it may have taken longer to find him. He called her disoriented and slurring his speech at 5:30pm. I doubt that 7.5 hours later, Mr. Marin was still alive.

    If he waits for better weather, if he takes more clothing, if he takes food, if he decides to turn back when it should have been obvious he wouldn't make it by his deadline, if he calls his wife sooner, if she reports him missing at 4pm instead of 6pm, if the authorities go in on foot at night in a storm, if, if, if.... This was a tragic accident.

    Did that reserve deputy that suffered a serious head wound in fall while searching for those two drugged out teenagers in the SA's last April ever recover? I think the Sheriff made the right call in this case.

  18. #18
    Just Plain Slow PhotoJoe's Avatar
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    Too bad. Sorry for the family's loss.

    This little bugger could have saved his life.

    http://www.amazon.com/SPOT-Satellite.../dp/B002PHRDO2

    If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving is not the sport for you!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoJoe View Post
    Too bad. Sorry for the family's loss.

    This little bugger could have saved his life.

    http://www.amazon.com/SPOT-Satellite.../dp/B002PHRDO2

    Yeah, if I mountain-bike, that is definitely something to have. As a day hiker, I sure am thinking about it now.
    Regards,

    Jed

  20. #20
    Senior Member Gallo's Avatar
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    Here is the fund for his wife and kids for funeral expenses.

    http://www.gofundme.com/Andres-Marin

    Good looking Family. Did not know the man and I am not very religious but I pray for them all.

    In my own convoluted sense of adventure, I could see me not giving up that close to a goal. I think that could be said of many of us. The time to critique his decisions passed with his too soon departure from this world. Learn whatever good you can from this tragedy. Give the family your prayers. Let the man rest in peace.

    your mileage might vary
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  21. #21
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    Gah, what an awful story. The ways I've gone up to Santiago Peak would not allow for cars of any type to make it up there after 2 days of rain, but I think the routes from the east side might be more reasonable.

    I still can't believe the guy went out on Saturday, which will probably be the worst day of the last 500 days to go mountain biking by yourself. I feel bad for that family, 4 kids now don't have a dad.

    I'm more mad at the dad of four than the rescue crew...but I do think the rescue crew could have saved his life and they should shoulder some portion of the guilt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Learn whatever good you can from this tragedy.
    There's definitely a lesson to be extracted here, though the specific content of the lesson could have been clearer. Autopsy findings would probably shed some light. I'm still inclined to think that there was a head injury, that would explain disorientation and memory loss. But I guess most of the symptoms could be explained by hypothermia as well. And I agree with the commenter above that, if he was poorly dressed and in advanced hypothermia by 5 pm, there was very little chance of anyone finding him alive, even if the search began right away.

    SPOT transmitter was one of the first things that came to mind for me. If you don't have SPOT, there are smartphone apps (e.g. Real Time GPS Tracker) that would give you much of its functionality, as long as you're within range of a cell tower. If you set up a smartphone to have the tracker running in background, and you make sure that your family has the URL for your tracker, they can pull it up and it will tell them your last known location even if you're lost or unconscious. (Of course, it won't help if you run out of battery and keep moving after that.) It won't help much in Sierra Nevada, where you could walk for days without catching a cell signal, but there's probably reception almost everywhere in Santa Ana Mountains. (Even if you fall into a canyon and lose the signal, tracker would still show your last known outside the canyon.)

    Carrying some survival gear is always a good idea, especially if you're away from civilization. There's a standard "ten essentials" list for hikers, Mr. Marin was apparently lacking at least three out of ten items (extra clothing, food, emergency shelter). Cyclists care too much about weight savings and not enough about carrying emergency supplies. How many cyclists even carry first aid kits in their seat bags?
    Last edited by hamster; 03-05-14 at 09:58 PM.

  23. #23
    Flying and Riding sam21fire's Avatar
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    The OP's words must come very easy to someone who's never had to go out and do it. Until you've been there, walked the walk, and directly faced the situation...shut up.

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    Guys who are considering a Spot might want to think about a PLB instead. I'm going with a PLB. Here's a good article on the diffs: http://ondafringe.wordpress.com/2013....j1O1TE7T.dpuf

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeme View Post
    Guys who are considering a Spot might want to think about a PLB instead. I'm going with a PLB. Here's a good article on the diffs: http://ondafringe.wordpress.com/2013....j1O1TE7T.dpuf
    Interesting. I knew that those were installed on boats and planes, but didn't realize that they were available to "regular people" (hikers & such). You need to pay at least $100/year for a subscription plan for SPOT, so a PLB ($300 up front and $150 every 5 years to change the battery) even works out cheaper in the long run. It gives you a better chance of getting through to SAR and faster response, because your SOS does not have to go through a third-party company on the way there.

    However, this specific guy (Mr. Marin) would've been better off with a SPOT than with a PLB. He didn't need a PLB; he had a working cell phone and he was in range of a cell tower. He could've simply called 911. If you're dealing with adverse conditions, like thirst, hunger, or hypothermia, how do you decide if/when to call 911 or to press the SOS button on a PLB? Many people would push on and eventually pass out without ever pressing the button. In this situation having a realtime GPS track is potentially more important than having a button. PLBs are great when they are self-activating. The ones on planes are activated by high g-forces. The ones on boats are activated by submersion. There's no equivalent for a hiker.

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