RISKDR1

being a cyclist I am careful rounding curves while driving this narrow road being careful not to crowd cyclists. I have personally ridden this road from La Canada to the Cajon pass. The road is narrow with little or no room for more than one car per lane. It is only a two lane road. Most of it is double yellow line which means no passing. While proceeding in my pickup truck I rounded a corner to find two cyclists riding abreast. This forced me to cross the double yellow line to pass them. My choice would be to follow them going 6 miles per hour for twenty miles. Don't do this folks. It creates a dangerous situation for both cyclists and motorists. Being an avid cyclist I am more tolerant towards other cyclists than other motorists might be. This road should be ridden single file.

prathmann

On much of that road there is basically no usable shoulder and the lane is too narrow to be safely shared by a cyclist and a passing pickup truck. Therefore my lane position would be far enough to the left to 1) make me visible to motorists coming up from behind in places where the road curves to the right (cyclists at the right edge become visible too late if the motorist is also driving at the right edge), and 2) make it clear to passing motorists that they need to move left across the center line in order to pass me safely. If a safe pass requires a momentary slowing due to oncoming traffic or decreased visibility - so be it (but if that situation persists then I'll look for a safe place to pull over).

Seems to me that the two cyclists riding abreast created no more hindrance to your passing than a single cyclist riding as described above. In either case a crossing of the center line is required for a safe pass since, as you describe it, the lane is narrow and has no room for more than a single car. My experience when riding farther to the right is that it is too likely to encourage passing by those who think a few inches clearance is sufficient even in the presence of oncoming traffic. Any misjudgement on their part, a slight swerve by the oncoming traffic, or something on the road surface that deflects my front tire and the cyclist would end up paying the price.

PS
Is there really a 20-mile stretch of that road without a single turnout or passing lane? Seems to me they were much more common.

Beachgrad05

This^

f4rrest

G u n to your head?

BTW, I was up there side by side today on the downhill. Using a mirror, going single file or pulling aside when it's safe to do so. The motorists were mainly civil, and we shared the road accordingly.

RISKDR1

what exactly does G U N to your head?" mean? By the way, these guys were going up hill at 6 mph or so.

I always give cyclists plenty of room no matter what they are doing. Riding two abreast on this stretch of road says, " I am an arrogant cyclist and can do anything I want. It is all about me".

Before I head out on my morning ride. I probably passed 50 cyclists on the way to my trail head. Some were in groups but of those 50 only one group (of two) chose to ride two abreast. That pretty much says it. The kid who was riding out in the street was about 20. I am 70 and have ridden for 38 years having raced on road and track. I have a lot more life experience than that kid and probably most of you. I was in the auto insurance business for that 38 years and have seen it all.

TJKnight

^you sure like to critique other people's riding styles.

rms13

I have yet to ride there but I drive there all the time and even when it's a single cyclist I usually have to cross the middle lane when I go by so I can give them a safe buffer when I pass.

Also as stated there are turn outs like every mile or so which people use to pass slower cars etc

RISKDR1

Actually, the rider did not move over and I pass cyclists very carefully. According to you, since I chose the violate the law by crossing the double yellow line that absolves the cyclist who is also "going too slow as to impede traffic", a violation of the vehicle code and ticketable. So if in your scenario I had waited to pass and had 50 cars backed up down the mountain that would have been the right thing to do since passing forced me to break the law.

The idea that there are turnouts for pulling over to let others pass is a strange argument. I have never seen a cyclist pull over into one of those turnout lanes to let vehicles pass and of course if I am behind the cyclist what would the point be for me to use the turnout?

So far the arguments for the cyclist riding two abreast seems to scream "I own the road and therefore can do anything I want". The great majority of the cyclists on that road did not share that attitude. Just one guy.

rooftest

Uh oh... the professor is going to show us how it's done.

t x

Yes. Also, I believe there are cases when it is legally permissible to cross a double-yellow to pass, but IANAL.

EDIT: The polite thing would've been for the cyclists to fall back to single file and allow the lane split if possible, but they are by no means legally required to do so.

volosong

Phew, couldn't have been me. I climb slower than that!

You need to get off the kick about crossing the double-yellow line when passing cyclists. There is not a patrolman on the Crest that will ticket you for safely passing a cyclist. Just make sure you pass when you can see the road ahead of you, to ascertain if any traffic is headed toward you.

I cycle that road occasionally and commute to/from work on it every day. I have yet to see a motorist pass a bicyclist without at least partially crossing over the double-yellow line.

markg

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.
-------------

I suggest you re-think this. Unless you can give the cyclist 3 feet of clearance, it is a sub-standard lane that you will have to cross the yellow line to pass safely anyways. If the riders drop into single file, you will be across the yellow line for a longer period of time. By riding side-by-side the cyclists made you cross farther out, but for shorter period of time. So consider it that they did you a favor...

EDIT: ...and before you start crying "impeding traffic, here is the CVC section on that:

21656. On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, a slow-moving vehicle, including a passenger vehicle, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed. As used in this section a slow-moving vehicle is one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place.

calamarichris

You're one of the good ones RISKDR and I hope I get to shake your hand one day. True, there are plenty in our midst who, due to the hormones stirred up by aerobic exercise, or frustration because everyone else is going so much faster so much easier than we, or perhaps inhalation of carbon monoxide, believe that we are obliged to endanger our own lives so that we may inconvenience motorists. Please don't listen to the nutjobs herein, nor especially to the utter nutjobs in the Advocacy&Safety subforum.
I used to think that such cyclists were giving us collectively a bad name, and I do run into the occasional hapless motorist hothead who lumps us all into the same category as the nutjobs. But the majority of motorists I encounter notice right away that I'm riding FRAP with blinking lights, and doing my best to coexist without endangering or inconveniencing anyone, and they regard me kindly and with much courtesy. (I almost always hear the reassuring rumble of their tires on the bot's-dots as they pass me.)
So THANKS to all you lane-takers! You make me look good by comparison, and you keep me safer.

diphthong

^ thumbs up

diphthong

that is one beautifully engineered road in the most difficult terrain in socal and possibly the country. earthquake/seismic activity and frost heaves kinda cancel each other out.
did two big rides in the last two days and didn't have to grab my brakes once around downhill curves on ach/hwy 2 and i'm not paolo salvodelli. some of the feeder/side roads
...not so much.

RISKDR1

<<<EDIT: ...and before you start crying "impeding traffic, here is the CVC section on that:

21656. On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, a slow-moving vehicle, including a passenger vehicle, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed. As used in this section a slow-moving vehicle is one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place. >>>

Perhaps this should apply to the bike rider since a bike is a vehicle.

RISKDR1

This reminds of my 10 year old when his best comback is "oh yea". Adds nothing of value to the discussion.

markg

It does, but please read the nuances of that law carefully:
1) 5 or more vehicles are backed up behind - this doesn't mean a couple of cycles have to pull off right away for a single impatient driver! It would be polite, but NOT legally required
2) "at the nearest place designated by a turnout...or wherever a sufficient area for a safe turnout exists". The key word is SAFE!Hugging the edge of the road far too often tempts cars to pass where there insufficient room to safely pass!! This is illustrated by the recent death of Matthew O’Neill up in Solvang area. Lit up like a Christmas tree, hugging the edge of the road, yet still sideswiped by a truck pulling a horse trailer that did not allow sufficient room while passing.

calamarichris

In that case, let's hope this Ambassador of Cycling Goodwill gets the maximum ticket possible from one of the good Officers stuck behind him.

(Though I do appreciate his making me look courteous [and thin] without my even trying.)

TrojanHorse

What a prince.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something.

Astrozombie

lol, what if he simply didn't have a mirror? Isn't it a faux pas to have one as a roadie?

calamarichris

If it is, it's a much smaller faux pas than not looking behind you and being aware of the conditions. And than being colossally inconsiderate to that many people.
I've only encountered one pack being that inconsiderate, and being on my motorcycle that morning, I was able to get through the traffic and get directly in front of them. My bike began to run strangely for some reason and I was unfortunately compelled to ride about 50 feet in front of them. Silly me, it turns out that my carburetor's choke was still employed, which was sending thick plumes of unburnt fluorocarbons in their faces for 2-3 miles while they were blocking the road. I felt terrible that they were inhaling my toxic exhaust during their exercise, but thankfully it only took me a few minutes to discern what the problem was and correct it. Fortunately forgetting to turn off your choke also isn't illegal, so technically I didn't have to do that, but it's still a faux pas to ride in front of inconsiderate jerks who are holding up dozens of cars behind them on a wide road with a bike lane (PCH) with the choke employed.

jimxyz

+1 No point in aggravting motorists if you can avoid it, it just makes it more dangerous for us going forward.

That's the curve on rock store where the cyclist was rear ended a while back (I'm sure we all recall that crazy video) - that wreck and the cyclist hit by the Sherriff - are probably the reasons why we see more CHP on this ride (thankfully).

TrojanHorse

How did the other 3 cyclists without mirrors in the video manage to coexist peacefully with the cars & motorcycles? The mind boggles.

Besides the car right behind him has RED wheels. Those are noticeably louder than metal colored wheels and at the speeds he's traveling, he should be able to hear them crunching over every tiny pebble in the road.

f4rrest

You DO realize that if the CHP weren't right there, that none of those racers would have been lined up behind him, right?