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new tandem advice (Smooth/Haka)

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new tandem advice (Smooth/Haka)

Old 06-25-16, 02:58 PM
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new tandem advice (Smooth/Haka/Periscope Scout)

We need advice on buying our third tandem.
Our first tandem was a Trailmate (red, wide tires, big fenders, classic look). Our current tandem is a Trek T900 we bought new in late 2003. We ride alone about 45 minutes every morning, 7 days a week. We have done this for over 20 years. We ride on the streets, paved paths, and occasionally on dirt or gravel roads or grass. We are in New Orleans, so it is all flat riding except for up and down the levee or a bridge over an interstate. Our roads have a lot of potholes. Our longest rides are about 4 hours on city streets where we load the bike with portable chairs and other gear to go to a park or outdoor festival. I am 5'10" and the stoker is 5'6." We each have a 32.5" inseam. So, no stock tandem fits us exactly. We prefer upright handlebars.

Our 13 year old Trek T900 needs parts replaced more frequently now and we are wondering if we should buy a new bike. The stoker will not go for a new T900 or a comparable KHS since she does not like the colors. Alas, it takes 2 votes to buy a tandem. We see no reason to spend big bucks on a tandem since we do not have mountains (or even big hills) and do not ride in a group where we would need to be able to keep up with the group. So, we are looking at the Hokitika Haka and the Santana Smooth. Both use 26" wheels. We have excluded from consideration tandems (such as the Co-Motion Bluebird) that use 700c wheels since we read that 26" wheels dramatically improve low speed maneuverability and have better bash-strength. The latter is a big factor for us since our roads in New Orleans are full of potholes.

Can anyone share experience going from a T900 to a Haka or a Smooth? Can anyone share their experience riding a Haka or a Smooth? I don't think we will make it to NJ to test ride a Haka. There is a tandem shop in Birmingham we might be able to visit to test ride a Smooth.

Can anyone explain what we would enjoy better with a Haka or a Smooth than we do with our T900 that would justify the cost of a new tandem? Our T900 is 18.5/14.5, which is small for the stoker. So, that might be one thing that would be better on a Haka or Smooth.

Thanks.

Last edited by jethro00; 06-26-16 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 06-25-16, 09:04 PM
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Try to get to test ride both of these tandems you are possibly interested in.
At tandem #3 you will know which is the better for your team.
Have known Mel and Barb and Jack and Susan for decades, both couples know their tandems.
Mel may stock the Smooth and handles the Haka (built for Tandems East in the US).
It may be worth a weekend trip to the New Jersey shore.
You may want to consider the 26" wheeled Co-Motion Periscope . . . we had a custom Co-Mo that served us very well for 56,000 miles.
A tandem is an investment in your good health and life style.
What are you gonna do, wait til you get older to get the tandem you want?
At ages 83/81 we are on tandem #5. The current custom c/f tandem has over 45,000 miles on it and we still ride it TWOgether very often.
Pedal on!
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Old 06-25-16, 09:45 PM
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If you can get to the Atlanta area, Alex Nutt (MTB Tandems | Website) keeps a variety of tandems to try out. He is worth calling and talking too, although I'll warn you after doing so, we made the trip from So. California to his shop and ordered a bike.

MTB Tandems | Website
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Old 06-26-16, 10:33 AM
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Kindly, might I suggest you reconsider buying a more expensive bike (Co-Motion). I can think of no one more worthy and deserving of a high end bike than someone that rides nearly an hour a day, 7 days a week, for 20 years running. You will truly appreciate the upgrade in frame technology and high end components. Obviously you love riding your tandem, spend a week or two doing a bit of homework and pricing one out. Take a serious look at the figure. Keep in mind it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume a new C0-Motion won't enter your life until Thanksgiving/Xmas.
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Old 06-26-16, 11:29 AM
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We've had our Hokitika Haka for about year and we're very happy with it. I've made a few upgrades: replaced the stock hubs with White Industries hubs, replaced the eccentric with a Bushnell EBB, switched out the bars and went with some old Shimano XT friction shifters. It's a great bike at an excellent price. I'll can also add that Mel, the owner of Tandems East, will bend over backwards to help you work out any issues you might have. As far as size-I'm 5'11 and my wife is 5'6". I believe our frame is 19" up front and 17" in the rear. It fits us well. We'll ride this bike anywhere, paved roads, gravel, even some light singletrack.

https://goo.gl/photos/AoaBQWtsWTCaBTUk6
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Old 06-26-16, 05:57 PM
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Thanks for the replies.

The Co-Motion Periscope Scout looks like an option we should consider.
I see that the tandem shop in Birmingham carries Santana and Co-Motion.
Maybe we will be lucky enough that they keep a Smooth and a Periscope Scout on hand for testing.
Has anyone owned a Periscope Scout and used it primarily for 2 adults?
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Old 06-26-16, 07:29 PM
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You should look at the Comotion Mocha. It's available with flat bars. The 650b wheels are the new 26".
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Old 06-27-16, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jethro00
Thanks for the replies.

The Co-Motion Periscope Scout looks like an option we should consider.
I see that the tandem shop in Birmingham carries Santana and Co-Motion.
Maybe we will be lucky enough that they keep a Smooth and a Periscope Scout on hand for testing.
Has anyone owned a Periscope Scout and used it primarily for 2 adults?
We rode the Periscope Torpedo for one year while waiting for our new custom tandem. The Periscope was fine but the radically sloping top tube was more suitable for a child than my wife, who's 5'5". The small rear triangle was harsh and made it mandatory to use Thudbuster suspension seat post. I suspect that the Co-Motion Mocha or Bluebird would provide a smoother ride.

Before you decide on 26", 650B, or 700C tires, look at the type of tires that are available for your terrain. I've used all three sizes and prefer 700C for better rolling resistance on rough pavement. There are also a lot of 700C gravel tires in 30mm or wider widths (eg. Compass Barlow). The 650B is ideal for rough dirt roads or serious off-road use. If you venture out-of-state, it's much easier to find faster (but robust) road tires like the Continental Four Seasons or Grand Prix in 700 x 28.
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Old 06-27-16, 05:12 PM
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Personally, I would also consider a TOTAL rebuild of your T900, keeping just the frame and maybe the fork. Price all of your options. Come up with a MUST have and a WANT list, then map your options against those.

IF changing, I would look for a 559 rimmed tandem that is capable of accepting 58-622 tires (larger OD than 28-622) which will soak up the bumps and roll well.
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Old 06-27-16, 08:50 PM
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Someone recommended the da Vinci Grand Junction.
Does anyone have experience with that model?
What is the collective wisdom on the ICS drivetrain?
I can think of how that might be useful on occasion.
Every now and again we have to detour on a sidewalk to get around a garbage truck.
Oak tree roots create huge raised pieces on the sidewalk. It would be helpful if the stoker could move her pedals independently to clear the hazard.
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Old 06-28-16, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jethro00
Someone recommended the da Vinci Grand Junction.
Does anyone have experience with that model?
What is the collective wisdom on the ICS drivetrain?
I can think of how that might be useful on occasion.
Every now and again we have to detour on a sidewalk to get around a garbage truck.
Oak tree roots create huge raised pieces on the sidewalk. It would be helpful if the stoker could move her pedals independently to clear the hazard.
Not to talk you out of a trip to the east coast but House of Tandems is just west of you off of I-10 north of Houston. They carry the models you are considering.
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Old 06-28-16, 06:35 PM
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Nigel,

We have some reluctance about rebuilding our Trek T900. New Orleans does not have a bike shop that specializes in tandem bikes. We use one of the premier bike shops owned and run by a guy who has a lot of experience (but not with tandems). When we get our bike back after work has been done on it, sometimes it is fine and sometimes not so fine. We're having a hard time with the idea of putting out a lot of cash in the hope that our local bike shop will get a rebuild right. If we lived where there is a shop specializing in tandems, we might feel differently.

Apart from that, I think the learning curve would be too great for us to figure out what components we would want. I have spent a lot of time researching models and features trying to figure out what would be a good fit for us. The input from this forum has helped a good deal. The next thing I will research is "a 559 rimmed tandem that is capable of accepting 58-622 tires (larger OD than 28-622") from your reply. I think it would take me forever to go through all components on a tandem bike sufficiently to know what we want.
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Old 06-28-16, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jethro00
Nigel,

We have some reluctance about rebuilding our Trek T900. New Orleans does not have a bike shop that specializes in tandem bikes. We use one of the premier bike shops owned and run by a guy who has a lot of experience (but not with tandems). When we get our bike back after work has been done on it, sometimes it is fine and sometimes not so fine. We're having a hard time with the idea of putting out a lot of cash in the hope that our local bike shop will get a rebuild right. If we lived where there is a shop specializing in tandems, we might feel differently.

Apart from that, I think the learning curve would be too great for us to figure out what components we would want. I have spent a lot of time researching models and features trying to figure out what would be a good fit for us. The input from this forum has helped a good deal. The next thing I will research is "a 559 rimmed tandem that is capable of accepting 58-622 tires (larger OD than 28-622") from your reply. I think it would take me forever to go through all components on a tandem bike sufficiently to know what we want.
Besides it having a timing chain and an eccentric bottom bracket at the captains position, a tandem is a bicycle when all is said. A bike mechanic who can set up a regular bike should be able to figure out a tandem without too much trouble. So could you, just saying. I don't know... if you have been riding your T900 for 13 years and didn't feel it lacking enough to upgrade, then it might be a sign that you don't really need to. I agree with the earlier poster who suggested a rebuild. I am sure your local bike shop can handle it. You might also consider just buying a fresh 2016 T900. We are in the process of shopping for a new tandem and are considering a T900. There isn't much not to like.

You might also look at Craigslist. I am not that excited about buying single (1/2) bikes on Craigslist because there are so many flippers of 1/2 bikes there. Anything interesting usually has substitutions from stock with lower cost crap components. Not usually the tandems. I haven't seen any in person, but I've seen a nice Cannondale that I may investigate. The asking price is less than the price of a new T900. It is a way nicer bike than a T900. A Santana Smooth or Co-Motion Periscope are overkill for a daily driver. We have a 700C Shimano 105 level road tandem for club rides and such, but haven't touched it in two years. We are on the Kent every single day, rain or shine. I do all the work on it so it has been extensively modified from stock.
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Old 06-29-16, 02:11 AM
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Personally I would stay away from Santana. The 160 rear width is just stupid. And Bill has told too many lies about the quality of other frame builders. My opinion is that he is not an honest person.
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Old 06-29-16, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
Personally I would stay away from Santana. The 160 rear width is just stupid. And Bill has told too many lies about the quality of other frame builders. My opinion is that he is not an honest person.
Squeezer; Based on the bias you offered in the current thread, I wouldn't be surprised if Santana Bill had failed to see answering your charges to be worth his time. Or perhaps you have suffered from earlier reactionary responses to some of your hip-shot slamming statements. Perhaps it is time for you to write Santana Bill an actual letter fully discussing your concerns with a goal of actually resolving the differences.

Thoughts from other readers?
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Old 06-29-16, 12:22 PM
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Jethro00; I was kinda surprised to see you looking to replace your current bike as it is a good one and would seem to fit your riding needs well. I have had one on several occasions.
>If you are looking for a 2bike in the sub-$1,000 range (who isn't?) I have had good long-term experience with the Santana Rio line. The steel XL/LG models with 26" wheels and upright bars are a sweet ride. You should be able to find one on eBay for $600 to $800. I have bought a good number of them on eBay for personal use and for 2Wheel needing friends. They have always been excellent and reliable regardless of how or where they were ridden. I nearly always add a pair of Schwalbe 26 x 1 3/4" Marathon Supreme tires for reliability and long wear reasons.
>> I got one Rio via eBay that was scratched up in shipment and Santana was able to quickly send me a tube of touch-up paint and a replacement set of decals for use later when I would do a full repaint.
>>One Rio arrived with the box torn open and the wheels gone by way of enroute thieves. One phone call and Santana quickly sent a set of exact replacement wheels and a matching cogset at a really decent price.
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Old 06-29-16, 12:23 PM
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rebuild option
So, if we kept our frame and fork, what would be an expected range of cost to rebuild our T900?
Has anyone been there and done that?

T900
We have enjoyed our T900. Our frame of reference is our previous bike was a Trailmate with 3" tires.
No one could keep the rear wheel (with a spoke size no one stocked) trued. We would ride down to the French Quarter and ride back with a rear tire rubbing on the frame or walk the bike back. So, the T900 was a nice step up.
We not only ride together, we also work long hours together. I personally do the interior restoration on our 100+ year old home, plus have 2 hobbies. So, I am not going to become our bike mechanic, other than changing a flat or a seat. I admire those of you who do your own work. We have a bike shop walking distance from us and we will continue to use a bike shop for repairs and maintenance, whether its keeping our 13 year old T900 going or working on a new bike.
The models we are looking at may, indeed, as one poster says, be overkill for our riding habits. I am enjoying and learning from the input in this thread from people with different perspectives. Keep it coming. One of my goals is to get input on what a new bike would do for us that would be worth the cost. We do not have to have a new bike. As of now, I am leaning toward test riding a da Vinci Grand Junction. It offers features we do not have (higher ground clearance, independent coasting, disc brakes, new components, and a much lighter weight). The lighter weight is not a concern while riding for us. Speed is not much of a big concern for us. But, 10 pounds lighter would be nice going up and down the front steps every morning and putting the bike in and out of a vehicle. The Grand Junction seems to be the most likely model to offer us things that might be worth the cost given our usage. I am going to start a new thread to see if anyone will share their experience with a Grand Junction.

Regarding why we do not buy another T900, it takes 2 votes for us to buy another bike, and we have a veto on the color. Since we do not have to have a new bike, if we buy one, whether it is a $1,000+ T900 or KHS, a $2,000+ Haka, or a $3,000+ Grand Junction or Mocha, we would both have to really like the bike, including the color. Black, silver, and white cannot get 2 votes in favor. The Grand Junction comes in metallic blue and metallic red, either of which could garner 2 favorable votes.

Santana
My stoker has vetoed all 3 colors (orange, light blue, and bright green). So, The Smooth is no longer being considered. That will save me from having to research the internal gear transmission on the Santana

Last edited by jethro00; 06-29-16 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 06-30-16, 11:51 AM
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There is another brand of upper level entry level tandem you haven't mentioned: Raleigh. You might have a look at their new for 2016 Cadent Tandem. it is the successor to a model called a Coupe that has been discontinued. We have a Coupe and like it a lot. Disk brakes, Shimano 105 level gruppo, 700C wheels, flat bars (we converted ours to drops) and ~40lbs. The Cadent has no physical resemblance to the Coupe. Truthfully, if we didn't already have a perfectly fine Coupe we would buy the Cadent. Having converted our Coupe to drop-bars and having thoroughly worn out our knock-around Kent Dual-Drive, we need another flat-bar bike for commuting and errands. Raleigh makes a model called the Companion perfect for this, and you might look at that one as well. I do not like the styling of the 2016 Companion, and I am on the trail of some new leftover models from 2013 and 2014. IMO the Raleigh Companion ideally suits the kind of riding and performance objectives of yourself and your SO. Luckily or not, my SO has no opinion on the aesthetics of a purchase. Being blind she cares only about the comfort and also the connection. Independent coasting would not excite her very much, she wants to feel that sense of joint physical purpose through the pedals that only a traditional timing chain setup delivers. When I first saw the Smooth, the IGH put me off but the dealer quickly assured me that they could buy back the Gates components and replace them with a traditional Shimano or SRAM drivetrain at no great savings. Fine if you just hate IGH on performance issues, but not so great if you are looking to save money. For us its more the latter. I don't have much else to offer. Good luck.
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Old 06-30-16, 01:00 PM
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+1 on looking for a good, used Santana or Co-Motion. I have owned a Santana Rio, and currently own a Co-Motion Mocha (both with 26" wheels) and they are both good bikes.

I agree that a Co-Motion Periscope might be a good option, too. These seem to come up used fairly regularly, and in good shape, as many folks buy them to ride with their kids and then sell them when the kids "graduate" to single bikes. They work perfectly fine as adult bikes, too, and are very adjustable. By the way, if you find a Co-Motion that you like at a good price, bu the color doesn't work, Co-Motion does repaints for somewhere around $600+ IIRC. There's a nice-looking Periscope on this page for $2000: Tandem Bicycles For Sale, Tandem Bike Components For Sale

The Hokitata line of bikes that TandemsEast sells also seems to be a very good value. I've seen them in person at TandemsEast events and wouldn't hesitate to buy one. They can also be custom-ordered, I believe (I've always guessed that Rodriquez makes the frames for TandemsEast, but never have confirmed this).

Also consider Cannondale tandems. These can be very good values used.

Personally, I'm not keen on the 650 wheels replacing 26" wheels. Very similar in size, yes, but tires are still much less available. But that's another thread! :-)
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Old 06-30-16, 04:23 PM
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Raleigh
We almost bought a Raleigh tandem in 2003. Then, we saw the Trek T900 and decided to get it.
I do not like the styling of the 2016 Raleigh Companion and my stoker isn't going to go for the color.
The other Raleigh model (Cadet) has 700c tires and we are going to stay with 26" tires. My stoker would not go for the color of the Cadet either.

Last edited by jethro00; 06-30-16 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 07-01-16, 06:22 AM
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I think you use your tandem enough to justify buying a nice new one in your favorite color.
You will enjoy any of the options you mentioned given your requirements. While the feel maybe a little different with each bikes, you seem like some one one who will not have any problem adapting and enjoying the new ride. You just have to make sure it fit and is comfortable.

That said, replacing parts is a normal process of owning a tandem. We have 3 tandems, and very few parts on any of them are from the original bikes. Also a can of paint will go along way in widening your options. Your bike shop can suggest a paint shop if you want a more professional look.
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Old 07-02-16, 11:25 PM
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Bit of a hijack to say we bought the T900 today. Tried to haggle the price down from full list since the bike had been on the sales floor for a year, but they wouldn't give. So we held out for new seats for 1/2 price, and we added fenders, pedals, a rack and double leg kickstand, and all the labor to put everything on was free and they did it while we waited. I also insisted they dial in the brakes and shifting to perfection. And they did. We rode it home from the shop (3 miles) and so far are quite pleased. The adjustable captains stem looks clunky and cheesy but I still have the Truvativ 110mm stem and 31.8mm riser bars from the Coupe before we converted it to drops. This bike is going to turn heads when we are done and for half the price of the cheapest of the big three (Co-Motion, Santana and Cannondale). They have offered to weigh it for us when we have all the accessories on.
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Old 07-03-16, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by chojn1
I think you use your tandem enough to justify buying a nice new one in your favorite color.
You will enjoy any of the options you mentioned given your requirements. While the feel maybe a little different with each bikes, you seem like some one one who will not have any problem adapting and enjoying the new ride. You just have to make sure it fit and is comfortable.

That said, replacing parts is a normal process of owning a tandem. We have 3 tandems, and very few parts on any of them are from the original bikes. Also a can of paint will go along way in widening your options. Your bike shop can suggest a paint shop if you want a more professional look.

WHAT HE SAID!

You might ride for an hour each day on a nice new bike. Win.
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Old 07-03-16, 10:39 PM
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Also, Salsa Powderkeg could be jolly.
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Old 07-04-16, 12:38 PM
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Well, flat bars on the front and wider tires are not an option on the da Vinci Grand Junction which comes with 26 x 1.25 tires and downturn bars. It is the only model da Vinci sells that you have to take as it comes. So, we would have to replace the wheels, front bar, and shifters. The next model up is the In-2-ition mountain bike, which comes with a flat bar in the front and 26" x 1.5" tires. Does anyone have experience with that model? 1.5" tires might be fine on the smooth asphalt on top of the levee. But, wouldn't we be better off with 1.95" tires on our pothole filled roads?

Last edited by jethro00; 07-04-16 at 02:13 PM.
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