Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    My Bikes
    Colnago C40 HP, Aegis Trident, Cannondale tandem
    Posts
    491
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    HI $$$ carbon framesets

    HI folks. This is my first, but won't be my last, post here. I came over from racing, and have lots of gear experience with that. As a result of that backgorund I'm guessing the Cannondale RT1000 I just bought will last a short time and be for sale. My stoker and I are coming along nicely as a team, and really enjoy it. DO any of you have experience with the high end framesets like the carbon AriZona tandem, Calfee, etc??? I raced hi-end carbon exclusively for years on the road so am spoiled; the Cdale is a pretty good handling bike considering how large everything is, but I can see where improvements can be had. Already gone to a Reynolds fork and 28mm tires. Got my timetrial bars mounted up as well. Feedback on wheels also appreciated. Thanks

  2. #2
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Towson, MD
    My Bikes
    2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
    Posts
    4,020
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    They cost a lot

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've talked with teams and heard from others who've ridden with teams who've thrown timing chains on one of those brands. This happens in the transition between out of the saddle high effort bursts and sitting again. There must be a wave effect that runs through the frame that derails the timing chain. The teams I've talked to say that they can't do a 100% effort because of this effect.
    Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling. ~James E. Starrs

  4. #4
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    We own/ride an ariZonaTandems custom carbon fiber 2-seater; currently 8,000+ miles on the odometer.
    Have also ridden a Calfee Tetra Tetra for 100 miles a few years ago (we were doing an article for a magazine).
    Both tandems are impressive: beautiful, light, easy to handle and great for climbs.
    We no longer 'race' (we are septegenarians) but do appreciate finely crafted/handling machines.
    Have ridden 'bout 30 brands of tandem in the past 30 years; have owned five tandems (a Follis, and custom Assenmacher, custom Colian and custom Co-Motion); have pedaled 200,000+ miles as a tandem duo.
    My stoker, Kay, sort of got tired test riding different brands of tandems and is not easily impressed. We've test ridden well-known, and lesser known, brands like Gottfried, Berry, Gilmour, Dawes, Serotta Ti, C'dale, etc. Having said that, both the Calfee and ariZonaTandems impressed her and me, immensely.
    Carbon is the 'new wave' material for tandems.
    ariZonaTandems standard frameset is $4,700 and that includes c/f fork, extra-lite eccentric and set up for caliper or disc brakes, clearcoat or single color.
    Options galore (more $) from custom sizing/geometry to c/f adjustable or non-adjustable stoker stem, or integrated seatpost/stem/stoker bars, or c/f stoker
    handrests. Choices of forks, paint, etc.
    Calfee's prices are a bit higher.
    Davis will build just frameset or delivers complete built-up tandem. You decide.
    You questioned wheels. On our tandem we use Velocity Aerohead rims (32H front, 36H rear), Chris king hubs, DT Revolution spokes. Ti spokes, of course could save a few more grams but add $. Rolf wheels would be another good option.
    'Custom' is all about what you want and what you are willing to pay. Davis even hand-crafted window cut-out c/f lugs, a c/f rear rack and a braze-on (glue-on) for our remote garage door opener, plus a spare spoke hanger under the boobtube. The sky can be the limit (but wallet will dictate)!
    Hope this is of some help.

  5. #5
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ElRey
    HI folks. This is my first, but won't be my last, post here.
    Let me suggest that you consider subscribing to and submitting your question to the Tandem@Hobbes list. There are several long-time and newer Calfee tandem owners and dealers on that list as well as a few AriZona owners and dealers who can address your questions.

    Subscription info can be found here: http://www.thetandemlink.com/hobbes.html

    FWIW: Calfee has tremendous name recognition in the racing and Tri-geek community has been building the Tetras for a few years now and has delivered several hundred to date in various configurations and two different carbon tubesets. Bob Davis and his AriZona tandems are a more recent addition to the tandem community who is just starting to gain name recognition which probably does more to explain the differences in the number of owners that you'll come across than anything to do with peceived value or performance differences between his tandems and Craig's.

  6. #6
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by oldbikeracer
    I've talked with teams and heard from others who've ridden with teams who've thrown timing chains on one of those brands. This happens in the transition between out of the saddle high effort bursts and sitting again. There must be a wave effect that runs through the frame that derails the timing chain. The teams I've talked to say that they can't do a 100% effort because of this effect.
    Exactly how many teams are we talking about? What brand year and model of carbon tandem? What types of riders were they, i.e., pro racers, average recreational, big and strong or heavy, fly-weights? Just how many times has this happened? Are they sure it was frame flex and not timing chain adjustment that caused the derail?

    I'm not doubting that it has happened; however, I've not heard anyone mention this before -- at least regarding one of the two brands listed in the orginal post. Thus, it would be nice if we could bound and quantify a few things as you've piqued my curiosity here.

  7. #7
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    We second the motion from Mark L., check out T@H for lots more on tandems!
    We have the greatest respect for both Craig Calfee and Bob Davis as c/f builders/designers/innovators; we know both builders personally, and consider them to be on the cutting edge of the carbon fiber tandem industry in the U.S.
    While prices on carbon fiber singles have come down due to mass production and offshore building, the producing/custom building of carbon fiber tandems is still quite limited and we are fortunate to have a couple engineers that have decided that building these exquisite machines is worthwhile.

    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    We recently upgraded from an aluminum Santana Sovereign to an Arizona cf tandem. Lots of changes besides the frame (regular wheel to Rolf wheels, alloy fork to cf, Shimano 8-speed to Campagnolo 10-speed, etc), but we are really happy with the change. The new bike is *much* lighter, which is really noticible going up hill. But the biggest change is stoker comfort. My wife would not consider riding the Santana without a shock-post, but she is perfectly happy with an regular post on the Arizona. We really could not be much happier.

    Scott Harper

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    My Bikes
    Colnago C40 HP, Aegis Trident, Cannondale tandem
    Posts
    491
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks for the input, one and all. Will probably ride the Cdale for the rest of this year and then see what we see. I think I'd go to the AZ frame, though.

  10. #10
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ElRey
    Thanks for the input, one and all. Will probably ride the Cdale for the rest of this year and then see what we see. I think I'd go to the AZ frame, though.
    The C'dale frame is no slouch if you're predisposed to hammer hard and any perceived harshness can usually be remedied with a larger diameter tire and/or a higher spoke count wheelset with higher number of crosses in the spoking pattern. Speaking of wheels, that's probably the one area on tandems where I'm a bit of a troglodyte: just not a fan of low-spoke count paired wheelsets and we're even a lightweight team. Of course, we're also not as fast as we used to be, don't pretend to be, and don't race. That said, conventional wheelsets built up with a durable, tandem-specific hub and a nice deep section rim using double-butted spokes continue to provide a great balance between light weight, durability, performance, and if necessary ease of repair. Moreover, you don't get locked into a given spoke/rim combination for the rest of the hub's life. For those who do race and who have extracted all the performance they can from their bodies and who are now looking to wring a few seconds out of their times by upgrading the machine, a set of low-spoke count paired wheels may provide some benefit. Then again, if it's time trials we're talking about, a race-specific set of tri-spokes might be more appropriate.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 08-12-05 at 09:43 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    My Bikes
    Colnago C40 HP, Aegis Trident, Cannondale tandem
    Posts
    491
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks Tgeek; I'm finding others who agree with you that, while the Cdale tubing can be harsh for a single road bike, it's a good setup for tandems. I do hammer when riding, so that may be something I keep in mind. My stoker is fine with teh comfort level...

  12. #12
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Wheels: just tried out a Topolino ultra light front wheel on the tandem: spoke count 24 with carbon fiber/kevlar 'flat' spokes for 20 miles this morning and no problems.
    However, we are rather light (total team 'bout 240 lbs) and older (142 years between the 2-of-us). For a time trial, the Topolino's could be about as good as tri-spokes, in our opinion.
    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  13. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Regarding thrown timing chains, I hear from Calfee owners and folks who ride with Calfee owners that it's become a pretty regular thing for some of them. This is on fairly new bikes too, no more than two years old. Mixed teams and male/male teams. Granted that these are pretty strong riders but I think that it's indicative of pretty severe frame flexing to derail a timing chain. It's gotten so that whenever I talk with a Calfee owner the talk usually turns to this subject. Maybe we're reaching a limit with the weight of tandems with current materials.
    Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling. ~James E. Starrs

  14. #14
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Limits in weight on tandems . . . not yet!
    Bet that all those timing chains supposedly 'being thrown' on Calfee tandems are from hard core riders who ride in phase. Two riders hammering and trying to overpower each other can result in 'thrown timing chains' . . . and not just on Calfees but metal tandems as well.
    Try 90 degrees OOP . . . it would result in less frame flex.
    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  15. #15
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by oldbikeracer
    It's gotten so that whenever I talk with a Calfee owner the talk usually turns to this subject. Maybe we're reaching a limit with the weight of tandems with current materials.
    There's an old businessman's saying that goes, "If you like our product or service tell your others, if you don't like it tell me". With that in mind I dropped Craig Calfee a note -- we correspond fairly often on various topics -- to see if he had heard any customer feedback on chronic timing chain derails or excess frame flex and he was not. He recalled one early tandem where he used the base of a Calfee sailboard mast as a boom tube that was sold to a team in Arizona who complained of flex. He had them send the tandem back to his shop and he stiffened up the frame.

    Therefore, if the Calfee tandem owners whom you hear from feel their frames are not stiff enough they should contact Craig to discuss their issues and the possibility of getting their tandem back to Calfee for some re-work. As Craig often notes, the beauty of carbon is that material can be added after the frame is built and stiffness can be dialed in to very specific directions using proper fiber orientation.

    In general, the feedback that is most often heard regarding Calfee's tandems is that they are very stiff and there are at least two 400lb + teams riding Calfee tandems and three Calfee Triplets. In the racing department, 3 teams have won their age groups at the USCF National Championships aboard Calfees.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 08-14-05 at 12:22 PM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Mark:
    Yes, know of the AZ tandem duo that had some flex issues on a Calfee. Need to add: they were also state time trial champs . . .
    Another note: ariZona Tandems has 2 c/f triplets (with S&S) on the road. No problems . . .
    Carbon fiber has proven itself as a great tandem frame material in the hands of a qualified builder.

    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Posts
    158
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't have any experience with any other builders, but I know that the sky is the limit with Calfee. Any custom options you can think of could probably be done by Craig. Titanium S&S couplers for easy transport, etc...

    www.calfeedesign.com

    The website doesn't even scratch the surface of availible options. call them or talk to your local dealer with questions. good luck

  18. #18
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Jacksonville
    My Bikes
    Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er
    Posts
    27,311
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    anyone familiar with Santana's carbon tandem?

  19. #19
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    anyone familiar with Santana's carbon tandem?
    The carbon & Ti "Beyond"? A little....

    I haven't ridden one since the ones we've been around have all be too big. However, I've given two of them a good look-see and understand a little bit about the machine from an academic perspective based on research, reading other's comments who've ridden them, and from a very long but interesting discussion with Bill McCready a few months back.

  20. #20
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Beyond is in the same $$$ range as c/f Calfees or ariZonas . . . most
    c/f tandems are lighter.
    Cute anecdote: At a tandem rally 2 years ago everyone flocked around a brand new Beyond . . . Beyond owner spotted our ariZona c/f tandem and asked 'can I pick it up?' His comment "Oh Sh--!

  21. #21
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zonatandem
    ...spotted our ariZona c/f tandem and asked 'can I pick it up?' His comment "Oh Sh--!
    Just curious Rudy, what is the wheelbase and the effective lengths of the captain and stoker top tubes on your Zona tandem?

    Note: For s--ts and giggles, I did an overlay of your Zona and our Erickson and it would appear as though your Zona is about 7" - 7.5" shorter than our somewhat longer than normal, small-size tandem, e.g., Debbie has a 31" top tube vs. the more normal 27.75" to 28.5".

  22. #22
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Nice overlay Mark!
    c to c pilot effective top tube: 20"
    c to c stoker effective top tube: 24 1/2"
    wheelbase: 63 1/2"
    Pilot 5'7", stoker 4' 10 3/4"; combined age: 142
    . . . and we admit to never having been *normal*!
    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  23. #23
    Senior Member Wildwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Seattle area
    Posts
    2,560
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I own a Calfee single and used to live close to the Calfee factory. While waiting for my single I stopped in to check on its progress and on two visits got to ride Craig's personal tandem. It was too small for me to give an honest evaluation (and they were short rides), but you would be dealing with a company that has more CF tandem experience than anyone and a person who rides one regularly.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •