sabertooth

A general question:

Has anyone bought a tandem with S&S couplers and then wished they hadn't? Or the other way around - have you bought a tandem without couplers and wished you had them?

I'm trying to decide whether to have couplers on a custom tandem. It seems like it might be nice to be able to split the bike into at least two pieces so I could transport it inside a mini-van. I can even see myself wanting to take the bike with us on a plane someday, in which case it would be nice if it fit into travel cases that were within the typical 62 linear inch limit for checkable luggage.

And a specific concern:

I'm just a little concerned about the way the front couplers on a bike like the Co-Motion Moca Co-Pilot seem to force the captain's water bottle cages to be a little farther forward. It doesn't seem like there is a lot of room to begin with for large water bottles in front. I'm about 5'10" and would be the captain, btw.

masiman

I don't have them but I don't plan on air travel in th near future. I have the impression from past conversations that they are not a simple 10 minute breakdown and setup process. I could be wrong on this part though as packing into cases may take a significant amount of the 1+ hour time being expressed.

If I had a triplet, Iwould like to have them to ease transport and also they make some triplets that can be converted to tandems through the couplers.

For the cost I would rather carry the bike externally, but I also will have a 5+ bike carry requirement. The roof carry option also gives me mount points for a roof box.

If I wanted to air travel to a ride or if I had fewer bikes to carry and wanted a smaller vehicle, then I think I would want the S&S option. Who am I kidding? I don't want a small car, I want a small truck so I don't have to worry about what I want to carry!

I know I did not help much but maybe someone will let you know how S&S works in practice to help you make your decision.

Old Hammer Boy

We don't have them because our Tandem can't accept them anyway. It's a Cannondale Road tandem. I expect that our next tandem will probably have them. We ride with several other tandem teams who have them, including a team with a triple Co-Mo, and everyone seems to really like them. Why would we want them? Mostly for the reasons you mention, especially a European tour some day, and even some domestic flights. Additionally, the ease (and security) of transporting on long automobile road trips seems to be an advantage. I wonder if one takes a beating on resale, not recouping much of the added cost of the couplers, or if they add enough value to actually add incremental value, or if they are pretty much of a write-off? I have not heard any complaints about having them other than it takes some time to assemble the bike, and they are a bit spendy, but that's nothing against S&S performance, and what ya gonna do about assembly, anyway?

zonatandem

After 30+ years of tandeming we do not have S&S fittings.
We have never even wished for S&S. Have traveled by air before couplers became available. Now that we are retired we travel mostly by car, as we no longer have limited vacation time (Now, that's nice!).
Have ridden several S&S tandems (when they first came out and after). Disassembly/assembly will take up about an hour each. Cost can be an issue: fittings + cases; however if you do plan on several airline trips per year, S&S can be a good option.
Riding with couplers is no problem. Asides from the co$t, there is a weight penalty, but that's the price you pay for convenience. Handling of the bike with/without S&S is the same.
The only way we'd opt for S&S is if we'd owned a triple (no need for it: kids are gone!) to give the option of two or three seater.
Hauling a tandem around is not a big issue for us. We have a Honda Accord station wagon. Tandem fits inside by removing one or both wheels.
Owning a van/pickup/large SUV should allow you to haul a tandem without any problems unless you have big family and lots more bikes to carry.
Have hauled tandem + racing bike + all stuff we need for long trips/vacation inside the Honda. Properly packing a car is a science!
On resale, you'll get a bit of a premium for the tandem if the buyer wants S&S, but you'll not recoup the $1,000+ extra you invested . . . but hey, you had the use/pleasure of riding it, right?
Have also ridden a folding tandem (Montague) which could be folded and put in its hardcase in about 15 minutes. Faster to fold/unfold, but alsoheavier than S&S.
As for water bottle placement, have 2 options: Camelback or use a Minoura handlebar mount for your water bottle.
Just our experience/opinion.

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

chainedtogether

We have only had our Speedster Co-Pilot a few months now, so we haven't travelled with it yet.
But travel is in our plans, and having the couplers sounded like the way to go. I am not looking
forward to the assembly/disassembly process. But I like the idea of having OUR tandem on our
trips, rather than borrowing/renting.

You raise a good point about the water botter situation. I am the same size, and I had to work
around the cramped bottle space for the front position. I ended up using elite side-entry cages.
Regular cages were too much a struggle to get bottles in and out. Even with the side entry
cage, I am only using a short bottle in the top. I think it will work out fine. Where we ride there
are plenty of refill opportunities. So that problem can be solved.

I also put a double bottle bracket on the stoker position. This allows three bottles for the back,
two sitting upright, which are easier to get in and out according to the stoker. Before installing this
wonderful invention, I negotiated water rights. I have the option to use water from the back.

I have a hydration pack I could use if I needed more H20 capacity. I don't want to do that unless
I have to. I'm silly about OCP.

sabertooth

Interesting comments. Thanks!

Resale value isn't a concern. I plan on giving the bike to my favorite blood relative when I die. Being a single speed, packing would probably be a little easier than it is for most people. A couple extra pounds might mean one more tooth on a cog or one less on a chainring; I suppose I could live with that. I guess what really has me concerned is the idea of riding cross country and then not wanting to ride home. Or wanting to travel to France for PBP someday.

TandemGeek

S&S = eliminating logistical headaches associated with transporting or shipping a tandem (period). You can put the S&S bike cases inside just about any car, taxi, limo, or shuttle van, take them on trams, trains, and buses, and check them as luggage on most any airplane or cruise ship without anyone batting an eye: they look like "luggage". What this means to us is, you no longer need to plan your trips around the logistics associated with transporting a 2.5' x 1' x 5' long 80lb BikePro case ($650) or similarly sized, cobbled-together bike boxes, or perhaps an unassembled and bagged tandem on your travels. Although, the latter may be OK if you plan to ride to and from the airport. Instead, the S&S tandem lets you "decide" to take the tandem along on your trip where the biggest headaches now become "what to do with the cases if we're going point-to-point": your tour host either moves them with your luggage or, if you're travelling unsupported with panniers, you ship them to the end of your journey. Or, and I'm always amazed that folks miss this one: if you have an open jaw you can pack your unassembled tandem (albeit well protected with lots of dunnage) in a regular, disposable bike box, just as someone might do with a single bike.

Yes, provided you don't go overboard on disassembly and have practiced a bit, you need to set aside about 45 minutes to an hour for careful packing & unpacking which is about 30 minutes longer than it takes to pack or unpack a full-size tandem. In many cases, you'll find that you won't be the only ones unpacking or packing a tandem at these events and it just becomes an extension of the socializing that takes place during the event: yes, I can drink beer and work on my tandem at the same time. For folks who want to stuff an S&S tandem into a small car for transit to local rides, disassembly / reassembly time is about 10 minutes and takes two packing blankets: remove the wheels and lay the tandem on one of the packing blankets; break-off the front section by un-screwing three couplers (all six for some tandems) and the four cable splitters; wrap the front end in a blanket and stuff in your vehicle's back seat or cargo area; wrap-up the back section and stuff it along side the front section and then put the wheels on top. On Co-Motion's S&S, the timing chain stays on whereas on Santana, Erickson's, Bushnells and a few others the timing chain needs to be pulled-off before disassembly (add 2 minutes to roll-off and roll-on the chain) but the frame becomes REALLY small once the three middle tubes are removed.

Performance: S&S tandems are ~1.5lbs heavier and generally tend to be a bit stiffer -- laterally and horizontally -- than their uncoupled counterparts.

On resale, the depreciation "should" be the same whether you increased the replacement cost of a base model tandem by adding $1,200 for S&S couplers or $1,200 for go-fast wheels and DuraAce components. However, at least in the current market, a reasonably priced second-hand S&S tandem will be snapped-up a lot faster than a non-coupled tandem.

Water bottles. I'm small and so are the front triagles on both of our road tandems so there's only room for one full size bottle on the down tube. However, there is room for three bottles in the stoker compartment -- two on the internal tube and one on the seat tube. The first bottle on Debbie's internal tube is mine. I simply pass my empty back to Debbie and grab the full one from behind my seatpost: It's not a big deal.

So, at the end of the day the decision is primarily one associated with:

1. Economics: Do you have the extra $$ for the S&S model & cases?
2. Convenience: What's the bigger burden; hauling a coffin around or fiddling with your tandem for an hour at each end of the trip? If you're not mechanically inclined and have a hard time folding a map, forget the S&S: you'll drive yourself nuts.

wsurfn

Sorry to tangent the discussion. Now that we really know we enjoy tandeming, retrospectively, I would have saved up for an S&S tandem. That said, I never would have risked the expense for our first tandem.

We have never been able to attend our regional tandem rally because an annual scheduling conflict (no, I cannot change it). But the tandem rally we really want to attend is the NWTR. The drive is too far for our cramped schedules, and hassle of air travel with the bike seems too daunting.

Can you rent a decent tandem, if you do it far enough in advance? This would seem ideal for us.

Again, sorry for the tangent.

zonatandem

Mark, got a great chuckle out of your ending statement ". . . if you're not mechanically inclined and have a hard time folding a map, forget the S&S: you'll drive yourself nuts."
Funny!
However thinking out loud a bit, some of these younger folk probably don't know what you're talking about as they use GPS, and have never had to unfold/refold a map!
Water bottle placement on small frames can be an issue. We have a rather small frame with drastically sloping top tube to accomodate height impaired Kay.
Internal lateral tube has one bottle mount on top of that tube for pilot; stoker gets one on top and one on bottom part of her end of lateral tube, plus she gets one mounted under her sloping top tube; pilot has a Minoura mounted bottle/cage on handlebar with a stiff plastic tube for easy sippin'. Stoker has a custom mount for bottle cage dead center of her stem/handlebar mount (avoids her hitting knee on bottle if it was mounted off-center on her actual handlebar) with a long flexible plastic tube for sippin'.
On previous tandems we also had a bottle mount on downtube very near the BB. If you have a rack/trunk bag, more bottles could be stored there . . . and in a pinch dual bottles can be mounted, tri-style, behind saddle.
We use standard small bottles in some cases, large where do-able.
As you can tell we prefer not to carry a load of water on our backs; here in usually sunny/warm/dry Arizona you've got to carry H2O, as once you leave town there can
be l-o-n-g stretches of road without any gas/convenience places.

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

LWaB

We don't have couplers on our current tandem but our next tandem will. Rental cars, regional (small planes), taxis are all difficult with a full-size tandem.

The only problem I have with the S&S couplers on my single is that my thighs touch the coupler (being bigger than the top tube), wearing away the skin during brevets. That already stops me using a large bidon on the direct lateral of the tandem. The answer on my single bike is a smaller diameter top tube.

merlinextraligh

Another approach; For $1500 or so (only $500 more than the couplers) you can get a bike friday tandem that packs for travel, and buy a regular tandem without the couplers to ride when you're not traveling.

kevinedc

I am in the same boat as Sabertooth. We are struggling whether to buy with couplers or not. I have packed my single bike in a Bike Pro case several times for travel and not being mechanically inclined and careful I found it took an hour to properly pack and 45 min to put back together. When I looked at the instructions for the Santana case, it really concerned me. Can anyone who has used couplers (that is not mechanically minded) pass along how long it really takes to take it apart and put back together. The bike shop says "about an hour".

larrydj

We bought a Comotion Cappucino with S&S couplers last year. It is VERY convenient for putting into an SUV: Undo the cables and the front couplers, and move inside. I am very glad we got this. It is only 10 minutes to do this either way. Of course, it is significantly longer to disassemble/reassemble for an airplane trip. We are planning to go to France & Italy this September, and transporting it in its 2 bags will be a key advantage. Besides the $100+ saved in air charges, now we can put it into a standard car or hachback and go to our destinations. We typically drive to a destiantion for a few days of day trips, and then drive to another destination for more. This matches our travel plans perfectly. I'll give a report in September on how it all worked out.

Brian

Our tandem is coupled, but it's a mountain bike. That makes it a bit harder to break down, as we're swapping out the mechanical discs for hydraulics. A coupled tandem road bike can be split for putting in a car, as mentioned above, but that's hardly a reason to get one. A roof rack with a Sidewinder will probably get you a better return on your investment, especially in time saved.

The six couplers on our bike don't add much weight (titanium) but they do stiffen the frame. If I did it again, I'd change the placement of our couplers. As far as water bottles, there are so many options available, that shouldn't be a concern at all. We've got 5 mounts, plus a Profile setup that holds two more on my seatpost, within reach of the missus. That allows us to rotate full and empty bottles around for convenience, and still have a battery for our lights in on the down tube.

sabertooth

What would you do differently and why?

Brian

Take a look at page one and two of this link. My couplers are between the seatposts. While the bike comes apart quite simply this way, I can't help but wonder how much more compact it would be if it was uncoupled in front of the captain's seat tube. As it is now, it breaks down into front and rear sections, plus 3 tubes. I think it might be easier to pack if it just broke down into 3 frame sections instead.

But I really have no complaints. It will be plenty compact once I swap the new fork onto it.

TandemGeek

FWIW: I'm quite happy with the two triangles (front & rear) and three loose tubes for packing trips....

However, if part of my rationale for having a take-apart was partial disassembly for local portage in a smaller vehicle, I'd probably opt for the Co-Motion approach of having three sections, where everything in front of the captain's seat tube could be removed without messing with the timing chain or necessitate removal of the three middle "connector" tubes. Just wouldn't want those suckers left hanging in the breeze as an invitation to disaster should leverage be applied to one of the ends of those very long tubes.

Now, to be fair, there's only about an extra 5 - 6 minutes of work associated with pulling off the timing chain and unscrewing three additional couplers... so it's not a critical barrier.

Brian

I'm happy to admit that the big problem with ours is the current fork. The dual crown is just too bulky for a coupled bike. I'll put the Marzocchi single crown on it when the bike arrives, and see how that works. We may end up with one fork for travel, and the other for the local trails.

Once I get the new fork on there, I can see about designing a custom case for the tandem.

Back to the original question, I wouldn't get an uncoupled tandem as our only tandem. If I had my way, we'd get a Ventana or DaVinci for our local trails, and then keep the titanium coupled one as an XC/touring tandem.

twonbike

We have couplers on ourThorn Adventure. Quite frankly we would not be with out them for all the reasons mentioned in above posts. TO take apart to fit in our small car 2min to assemble 3min. To break down and put in two boxes for air travel 2minlonger than if it was a complete tandem and 3 min longer to assemble. Our front third comes off in front of the captains seat post. The rear section fits in a standard bike box. I cut down a standard bike box for the front section and it gies as normal luggage. I am looking at packing the front section into a large suitcase. They were well worth the money. We have had no problems at all with them. But they are very very expensive.
Cheers Brian & Sue

masiman

Expat,

I would imagine that it is more efficient to pack if the 3 tubes are independent as they are in your current config. If there were 3 frame sections I think you would need 3 boxes/bags to load those sections into. With the 3 loose tubes it is probably more likely that you can fit those loose tubes into spaces around the two sections and end up with only two boxes/bags. Again, I have never messed with S&S so your insight will count more than mine on this.

Brian

If you go to the thread with photos of our tandem, you can see that the captain's cockpit is pretty roomy. But that means a bit more length to pack. It does seem like it will be really easy to pack without the dual crown fork though. Currently, the fork would need to be removed to pack it small. Not only is that extra work, but that means I need to carry a torque wrench too. And that fork is a bit more fragile than the one that will replace it. So maybe I'm just complaining, because we're waiting for delivery of our tandem and other household goods.

Pat from CA

Have been riding tandems for about six years. First tandem was a Santana uncoupled...decided to do Vermont tour....cost to ship as freight to local bike shop in Vermont and back ($400) plus bike shop charges. Switched to coupled CoMotion...rode Seattle to Portland last year...cost to take on plane with us $0...cost to assemble....$0...pretty easy decision for us. This was the first time I had reassembled the bike...took about an hour with only a couple small tools needed... I would never purchase another tandem without S&S couplers as we do a fair amount of airline travel with the bike.

As far as riding characteristics....you really don't even recognize a difference from an uncoupled bike as the couplers seem stiffer than the tubing. Weight differential is minimal and anyway...it's a tandem...so it's gonna be a little slow uphill anyway...

Water bottle cages...not sure what the issue is....I do have to take one off to get at the lowest coupler but that adds three minutes to reassembly...no biggie..we have a total of four on the bike...plenty for the kind of rides we do (50-150 miles)...

Brian

Pat makes a good point. A few trips can easily pay for the expense of couplers. The weight penalty is probably less than a full water bottle, and as far as strength, a coupled tube is actually stronger than a straight tube. This is because a coupler effectively turns one tube into two shorter, stiffer tubes.

geoffs

We have a custom Mocha Co-pilot which has room for three large waterbottles up front. It is a big frame though as I'm 187cm. The couplers have made travel much easier for us. We recently completed the BigNSWride and had a great time there despite the headwinds. We were planning to pack the bike into it's bags and catch a bus back however a friend offered us a lift back in his car. Tough choice, an Audi quattro and leave now or stand aroud for another 2 hours and catch the bus and then have to catch a taxi home from where the bus dropped us off.
The tandem fitted into the boot of the Audi A4 sedan with room left for a couple of medium sports back and his bike (specialised Soquia?).

Another couple that was on the ride took our Mocha for a test ride and loved it. They are ordering the same bike that we have although it will be a M/M and a different colour I hope. They will be in the US to pick it up in September.
We have 7 bottle cages and we also had the rear made a bit longer than standard. Our rear top tube measures 75cms which is about 2.5 longer than standard.

Cheers

Geoff

kevinedc

Any thoughts on whether it is better to have 2 cases versus 1. For some reason Santana pushes their 1 case and with the weight and combined dimension restrictions, I may end up paying an addtional freight charge after all. I am meeting with the bike shop Saturday to discuss and would love any input. Thanks