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Old 02-16-07, 08:04 AM   #1
Xanti Andia
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Co-Motion Mocha vs Speedster (or Primera)

Can anybody tell me the differences between Co-Motion Mocha vs Speedster (or Primera)?. I can read up on the components, but not quite sure what are my tradeoffs.

As per my previous post Poll: Help me decide on a bike I have been getting a whole pile of comments regarding my selection of a new tandem, and I am leaning towards the Mocha, but being more of a roadie, I wonder. Mocha gives me 26" wheels (which are more standard in South America) and more freedom to choose gravel roads on tour.

As always your spirited comments will be much apreciated.
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Old 02-16-07, 12:00 PM   #2
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I will let those that know more about Co-Motions answer the main part of your question. If it helps.. I am an ex-racer... and a go fast type of guy, and I would not hesitate in getting a 26" wheeled tandem. A 26"wheeled tandem with "road" bars....would be my first choice in a "one bike for everything" situation. And that is for here where 700c tires and stuff is readily available.. in what you describe would be a no- brainer for me.

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Old 02-16-07, 12:30 PM   #3
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Yep, prety much sold on 26" wheels.

Looking at the specs of the Mocha, I see that there is a head angle difference, 73 deg for Speedster, 71.5deg for the Mocha.

A steeper head angle gives better steering responsivenes, more feel of the road, and a more jagged ride. Performance bikes go for a higher angle, comfort bikes use shalower head angles. So here we have a difference, but I don't have a scale as to how much of a diference is the 1.5 deg. My road bike is 73 deg like the Speedster, I don't have a mountain bike to compare.

I see Da Vinci uses 73 deg on both their road and off road models. So does Trek. Santana does not report.
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Old 02-16-07, 02:02 PM   #4
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I am sorry I missunderstood. I thought you were still a little hesitant on the 26" wheel.

There was another thread just a little while ago on some of this. TG... if i remember correctly was saying the head angles were the same, but it was the fork rake itself that made the Co-Motion.. feel that much different than a Santana.

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Old 02-16-07, 02:48 PM   #5
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Trail is a pretty good predictor of steering responsiveness and stability, and trail is affected by head angle, fork offset, _and_ tire size.
A few moments with the calculator at <http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/elenk.htm> reveals that a bike with 26x1.3 in tires, 71.5 degree head angle, and 50 mm fork offset will have almost exactly the same trail as a bike with 700x28c, 73 degree head angle, and the same fork offset. If the Mocha fork does have 50 mm offset, the bike should feel very much like its bigger-wheeled brethren.
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Old 02-16-07, 05:49 PM   #6
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Given all the responses on the other thread, and especially Tandemgeek's good info on the Mocha, that seems like a better fit for your traveling, performance and price needs than the Speedster. The Mocha is also all Ultegra, whereas the Primera is 105. As I and others indicated on the other thread, a coupled Speedster with two cases is more than your price target.

My stoker and I did not like the Periscope with 26 inch wheels (the only 26 inch tandem we have ridden) when we rented one, and eventually bought a Speedster. The Periscope did not seem responsive enough -- a combination of frame geometry, wider 26 inch tire, and possibly tire pressure to be honest. I don't have the specs handy, but I recall the Mocha being set up as more of a performer than the Periscope. Maybe you can get some input from Mocha owners off line or as part of this thread? You could also try corresponding via email with some of the Co-Mo people, who in my experience are very helpful. I do not recall you saying where you might buy the bike, but there was something about coming to the US. If so, maybe correspond with a potential seller? I found Rick Steele at Gold Country Cyclery in northern California to be very helpful, and he carries a number of tandem brands and models. Let us know what you decided and why!
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Old 02-16-07, 06:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenlason
TG... if i remember correctly was saying the head angles were the same, but it was the fork rake itself that made the Co-Motion.. feel that much different than a Santana.
Fork rake is the most obvious and biggest driver for the difference, but the very stiff design of their frames also factors into the final handling characteristics.

Last edited by TandemGeek; 02-16-07 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 02-16-07, 06:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanti Andia
Looking at the specs of the Mocha, I see that there is a head angle difference, 73 deg for Speedster, 71.5deg for the Mocha. [snip] So here we have a difference, but I don't have a scale as to how much of a diference is the 1.5 deg.
Here's the deal... and the differences:

1 - Wheel Size
2 - Compoments
3 - Price

For S&S models, all three frames use the same Reynolds 725, heat treated tubing specifically designed and butted per Co-Motion's specifications for use on Co-Pilot tandems. It's noted that the standard, non-S&S Mocha & Speedster framesets use somewhat lighter Reynolds 631, air-hardening tubing, whereas the Primera continues to use the Reynolds 725, heat treated tubing frameset.

The Co-Motion Mocha road is a 26" version of the Speedster, with a few minor component differences. The head tube and fork rake have been set to yield Co-Motion's trademark handling.

The Mocha & Speedster have similar component groups (Ultegra/XTR) with a few differences for cranks, hubs, etc. The entry-level Primera's components (Tiagra/105/XT) are a somewhat lesser grade. A summary of the three component groups is in the attached .jpg.

Just going off of Co-Motion's web site, Mocha lists for $300 more than a Primera and a Speedster lists for $655 more than a Mocha. Without getting into too much detail, if you take the time to run the cost of the frames and quantify the component cost differences, you'll find the Mocha is an outstanding value. Interestingly enough, the Mocha was priced at nearly the same cost of the Speedster in previous years.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg specs.jpg (74.9 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by TandemGeek; 02-17-07 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 02-16-07, 07:32 PM   #9
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It seems that the Mocha it is.... Let us know what you end up doing.
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Old 02-16-07, 11:04 PM   #10
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For your previously expressed needs and from all the above comments: Co-Mocha.
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Old 02-17-07, 04:48 AM   #11
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Just make sure you oder the Co-mo that best fits you and your stoker.... leaving room for a suspension seat post in case your stoker wants to use one
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Old 02-17-07, 01:26 PM   #12
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We had the same criteria (sans couplings) and came to the same conclusion, Mocha: http://lukefisher.com/bikes.htm
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Old 02-24-07, 05:26 PM   #13
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If you are near Seattle - stop by and we'll let you spend some time are our Mocha - have around 5000 miles on it now along with 5000 on our Bilenky - both very different bikes, but we use them for different purposes as well. We started out with a Santana Arriva not quick handing but a very steady bike. The Mocha is our loaded touring bike, panniers, some gravel roads, extremely safe in these conditions.
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Old 02-26-07, 07:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vosyer
If you are near Seattle - stop by and we'll let you spend some time are our Mocha - have around 5000 miles on it now along with 5000 on our Bilenky - both very different bikes, but we use them for different purposes as well. We started out with a Santana Arriva not quick handing but a very steady bike. The Mocha is our loaded touring bike, panniers, some gravel roads, extremely safe in these conditions.
The Mocha it is, and the order has been placed (as you might heve seen in my gearing thread). Can you detail on how your Mocha is outfited?, I am still in time to decide on components and options. Shame, no trips to Seattle in the near future. Thanks.
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Old 02-27-07, 01:47 AM   #15
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Mocha

Not sure how you are getting the bike outfitted from Co Motion - we have road bars front and back. The stockers are fairly wide and bent outwards. The stocker controls the drag brake via a bar end lever. We have a rock shox seat post for the stocker and we are running Deep Vee Velocity with 40 hole Hugi tandem hubs with Schwalbe 1.35 Marathon Plus tires - Race Face cranks and rings with Xt long cage - Ultegra Shifters, but anticipate switching to DuraAce bar ends or Campagnolo shifters. I have several different racks - currently running Surly Nice Racks front and back, but sometimes run Tubus
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Old 02-27-07, 06:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vosyer
Ultegra Shifters, but anticipate switching to DuraAce bar ends or Campagnolo shifters. I have several different racks - currently running Surly Nice Racks front and back, but sometimes run Tubus
Troubles with the Ultegra shifters?
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Old 02-27-07, 11:54 PM   #17
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Mocha - Ultegra

I have a number of bikes and the only 2 I have that are shimano STI equiped are my tandems - I even gave a set away new on a touring bike that came equiped with them. They are are on lots of bikes just not mine - I haven't converted the tandems yet to something other than shimano, but a number of my friends have. How bikes come equiped is very personal - not a fan of V-Brakes either so on my other tandem I installed Paul cantilevers and I bought a another set for my Mocha they just aren't installed them yet. Sorry not much help from me on this subject - Mike
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Old 02-28-07, 01:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Xanti Andia
Troubles with the Ultegra shifters?
None so far in 13K miles
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Old 03-01-07, 04:53 AM   #19
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We have a Mocha Co-Pilot and couldn't be happier. We bought it from Mel at Tandems East who arranged for it to be custom made for us. We took it for a bit of a ride around where Mel lives and then headed for France and Austria for 6 weeks with nothing going wrong.
I'm 6'2" and Marian is 5'3" so we didn't fit on the standard frame size.
We have Road bars at the front and a Profile Cow-horn at the back. The Dura-ace shifters now have over 9,000kms with no problems.
We had the rear top tube made a bit longer so it is nearly 30" c/c. Marian finds this this much comfortable than the 27" on our old Santana Sovereign. I was nervous about the Hugi hubs as I have a friend who has broken his 3 times but the new design seems fine. The DeepV 40h rims are still true and they haven't been having an easy life.
Last year I swapped the Soma 1.25 tyres for some nobbies and we entered into a MTB race (well we did the social class). Suspension forks would have been nice but we made it.


Cheers

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Old 03-01-07, 08:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanti Andia
Troubles with the Ultegra shifters?
5 bikes all Shimano equipped - DuraAce, Ultegra (tandem) and 105. Do not like the Shimano 105 (too stiff shifting). DuraAce and Ultegra are great.
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