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  1. #1
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    Advice please - Trek T1000 vs T2000

    I'd be grateful for the informed and helpful insights that are always offered here -

    I'm about to pass on my much loved Santana Visa from the early 90s for one of these Treks

    The difference between the models seems to be components, not frame - is that correct?

    If so, do you feel that the Racelight wheels, R600 brakes and 105 shifters on the T2000 are a major advantage?

    (Personally, I'm easily persuaded that they are -- but I prefer the colour of the T1000 -- and who wants to pay more for a bike that looks drab!)

  2. #2
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobblyoldgeezer View Post
    The difference between the models seems to be components, not frame - is that correct?!
    Yes, frames are the same. However, steering geometry is different, noting that the T1000's steel fork used the same 55mm of rake as your Santana whereas the T2000's Bontrager carbon fork use 50mm of rake which approximates the steering geometry of Co-Motion's steel fork equipped tandems. In other words, the T2000 has what I would characterize as a bit more 'sporty' or aggressive (a good thing if you like fast descents and cornering).

    Quote Originally Posted by wobblyoldgeezer View Post
    If so, do you feel that the Racelight wheels, R600 brakes and 105 shifters on the T2000 are a major advantage?!
    Of all the integrated go-fast wheelsets, the Bontragers seem to have the fewest issues and where issues have been reported Trek has been very responsive to owners. The R600 and R550 long-reach caliper quality and performance aren't all that different, which is also true of Tiagra vs 105 components: Tiagra is good, 105 is better (weight & finish). Ultegra / XT which is what's spec'd on the T2000 is the sweet spot in Shimano's component line in terms of best value, similar to Campy Centaur / Chorus.

    Quote Originally Posted by wobblyoldgeezer View Post
    Personally, I'm easily persuaded that they are -- but I prefer the colour of the T1000 -- and who wants to pay more for a bike that looks drab!
    I believe you can purchase your Trek T2000 through the Project 1 program, which gives you a variety of different finish options. More info here: http://projectone.trekbikes.com/
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 07-25-07 at 08:50 PM.

  3. #3
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    The frame question is easily answered by the Trek dealer. But from the website, they look the same. With respect to the 105 v Ultegra, IMO Ultegra components are far superior to 105. We own 105, Ultegra and DuraAce gruppos and the 105 is serviceable but not great and I would not buy that gruppo again. From the website, it appears that Project One customization is possible for tandems such that you can get any color you want on the T2000. I find the lack of 10 speed technology unacceptable. IMO, one is buying outdated components on a new product. The comment has nothing to do with whether or not 9 speed technology works well, is superior or inferior to 10 speed, or is adaquate for your needs. Good luck.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  4. #4
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    I don't recall off the top of my head... The crank/ chainrings are much better on the 2000 vs 1000...
    I would take the 2000 in a heartbeat over the 1000

    glenn

  5. #5
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    I have an older T2000 - It's mostly the same as the current one but cost less. It has red glittery paint and Avid shorty brakes and steel fork. I also think the rear dropouts are a bit different, not that that matters at all.

    We like it. It rides nicely and I have no issues with the quality or stiffness of the frame, and I'm quite happy with Ultegra components even though I have Campy record on my nice single bike. Other than the swaps below I haven't needed to change anything else, though the upgrade program starts soon. This is very odd for me - I recenly bought a Pinarello Galileo and about half of it was changed in the first 3months.

    I think the T2000 is worth the extra money over the T1000 since to upgrade the T1000 components to that level would be more expensive, plus I don't think I would have been happy with Tiagra etc. and lack of go-faster wheels, carbon fork etc. 9spd isn't a big deal - I don't miss the 10th gear when riding it. It's easy to upgrade anyway - new shifters, chain cassette are all that's required. Wait until the shifter stops working.

    The only components you need to agree to swap with the dealer when you get the bike are:
    - Saddles as the bontrager ones are of the quality you see on a £500 bike not a £2000 bike and are designed for beginners, i.e. too wide and squishy.
    - Handlebars. It comes with ridiculous 46cm bars, which are OK for apes but not normal people. The only constraint here is captain's width - I fit comfortably between my stoker's 40cm bars. She prefers 38cm bars, but the 40cm are fine given reach is about 1cm shorter on the tandem than her bike. You will also have to adjust the brake lever positions. I like the top of the bars to be flat and the levers to flow from this. The trek people seem to like levers as far down as possible which is just uncomfortable.
    - Stems. The stoker stem is an adjustable boat anchor. You can use an ordinary a-head stem on the shim that comes with the stoker stem and save about 3/4 of a pound, provided the position still works. Captain's stem should be of the correct length for your position.
    - Pedals. Buy your preferred ones.
    - Inline gear indicator on the RH shifter. You can't see the cassette, so without it I used to get stuck cross chaining by accident or run out of gears and end up losing momentum by changing the front chainring on a hill.

    Possible optional upgrades in the pipeline for my T200:
    - My carbon AME fork is in the post. This will hopefully steepen everything up a bit and lose a lot of weight, though the main reason is to get rid of the cludgy cable hanger on the stem so I can get the stem a bit lower and hopefully get better working and looking caliper brakes.
    - Rear disc. This comes next as the rear cable hanger on mine looks like an afterthought.
    - I am tempted to put on some sexy carbon bars and Thomson seat posts and stems as I think there is weight to be saved. However I haven't as the price / performance improvement is marginal.
    - The crankset is fine, though a bit out of date now. I would expect carbon or at least hollow Shimano alloy nowadays. There's nothing wrong with it though, so it's not worth changing.
    - Campy shifters, 10spd chain and deraileur- I have some Chorus bits sitting around that could be put to use. I haven't so far as Shimanagnolo is a bit odd IMO.
    - Tyres - originals are OK gripwise, but are a hard compound so don't wear that much but don't grip as well as I'm used to in the wet. I'm waiting until we wear them out to put my ideas to the test. 25mm Michelins Pro2s are what I have in mind

    All in all, it's been a great bike for us that I think will last another 5 years without many changes. I'd only change it for an all-singing-all-dancing carbon go faster tandem like Rudy and Kay's Zona.

  6. #6
    Double Secret Probation R900's Avatar
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    We've been very pleased with our T2000, given the wheels and components, I'm glad we went for the 2000. No changes for us either other that tires, we replaced the stock Bonty's with some Conti GP4000's and really like the new rubber. The current frame also allows for a disk option, something ours does not, so another plus. Handlebar with hasn't been a problem, but I'm 6'1", and I think 9 speed makes more sense for a tandem since the chains are a little heavier, and to interchange with MTB components.
    Time to Ride...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    The frame question is easily answered by the Trek dealer...
    I find the lack of 10 speed technology unacceptable. IMO, one is buying outdated components on a new product. The comment has nothing to do with whether or not 9 speed technology works well, is superior or inferior to 10 speed, or is adaquate for your needs.
    The frames are identical; the most significant differences between the two models are the fork, wheels, and cranks. I agree with the OP that the T1000 blue is nicer than the T2000 gray. We dressed our T2k up with red tape and cages so that it's at least handsome, if not pretty.
    As for "the lack of 10 speed technology [being] unacceptable," tell that to Shimano and SRAM. (And, for that matter, to Co-Motion and Santana, who still sell many tandems with 9-speed drivetrains.) Neither Shimano nor SRAM show sign of introducing a 10-speed ATB or touring drivetrain or a 10-speed cassette wider than 12-27 teeth. I believe that the lack of wide-range 10-s cassettes from the mainstream component companies is the primary reason why Trek has continued to build their tandems with 9 speed.
    IMO, the Trek is a super value. In fact, if you must have a killer paint job and 10 speed you can buy a Project One T2000 and upgrade to 10-s shifters, chain, and cassette, and still have spent many $hundreds less than the cost of a comparable Santana or Co-Motion.

  8. #8
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeriderdave View Post
    The frames are identical; the most significant differences between the two models are the fork, wheels, and cranks. I agree with the OP that the T1000 blue is nicer than the T2000 gray. We dressed our T2k up with red tape and cages so that it's at least handsome, if not pretty.
    As for "the lack of 10 speed technology [being] unacceptable," tell that to Shimano and SRAM. (And, for that matter, to Co-Motion and Santana, who still sell many tandems with 9-speed drivetrains.) Neither Shimano nor SRAM show sign of introducing a 10-speed ATB or touring drivetrain or a 10-speed cassette wider than 12-27 teeth. I believe that the lack of wide-range 10-s cassettes from the mainstream component companies is the primary reason why Trek has continued to build their tandems with 9 speed.
    IMO, the Trek is a super value. In fact, if you must have a killer paint job and 10 speed you can buy a Project One T2000 and upgrade to 10-s shifters, chain, and cassette, and still have spent many $hundreds less than the cost of a comparable Santana or Co-Motion.
    SRAM, Shimano and IRD make 10 speed technology with IRD offering 11/34 and SRAM 11/28. The Trek dealer can change out the gearing and related equipment to whatever the OP wants and is willing to pay for or he can accept the Trek standard value proposition. I think the reason that Trek does not offer 10 speed technology is price - they would have to raise the retail price and lose pricing advantage. They certainly have the know-how, component support via SRAM (it is in their new Madone line) and could do it if they wanted to. The lowest cost Santana is $3495 from their web site and has 11/34 10 speed technology and the T2000 is $3630 from Trek's web site. I did not compare them to see if that is a fair comparison or if the price is realistice for a party to pay in a bike shop (I am not the one buying this). I did not see any 9 speed stuff on Santana's web site but I did not do an extensive analysis. My comment stands: IMO, Trek should have a 10 speed offering for its top of the line tandem at that price point. OP can decide what he wants and is willing to pay for and should reject anything I say if he has conflicting and more accurate information through his own independent research or from Trek owners providing feedback.
    Last edited by Hermes; 07-25-07 at 08:14 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  9. #9
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    Thanks to you all - that's really helpful, and also really consistent : T2000 seems to be the choice here! Up to me to choose colours through Project One..Uh oh, here comes the spending ....

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    SRAM, Shimano and IRD make 10 speed technology with IRD offering 11/34 and SRAM 11/28.
    IRD is not a "mainstream" supplier; 11-28 is not wide-enough range for many — if not most — potential customers; and not everyone is convinced (yet) of the suitability of 10-speed for tandems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    The lowest cost Santana is $3495 from their web site and has 11/34 10 speed technology and the T2000 is $3630 from Trek's web site.
    It's silly to compare the lowest-cost Santana to the T2000 and make the leap that Santana is a better buy simply on the strength of cassette cog count. Per the 2007 "Tandems and Tandeming" catezine, a similarly equipped, aluminum-frame Santana with carbon fork and aero wheels will set you back about $6100. You can do a lot of upgrading for $2470.

  11. #11
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    Trek has come a long way in the tandem market and offers very good quality/pricing and dealer support.

  12. #12
    Double Secret Probation R900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeriderdave View Post
    IRD is not a "mainstream" supplier; 11-28 is not wide-enough range for many — if not most — potential customers; and not everyone is convinced (yet) of the suitability of 10-speed for tandems.



    It's silly to compare the lowest-cost Santana to the T2000 and make the leap that Santana is a better buy simply on the strength of cassette cog count. Per the 2007 "Tandems and Tandeming" catezine, a similarly equipped, aluminum-frame Santana with carbon fork and aero wheels will set you back about $6100. You can do a lot of upgrading for $2470.
    We looked at the comparable price wise Santana, it was nice, but compared to the Trek T2000, the Trek had a lot more to offer.
    Time to Ride...

  13. #13
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    IRD 10speed cassettes don't work.
    Supposedly Santanna was told by Shimano that they would be introducing 10speed drivetrains into the Mountain bike market. This was a few years ago... but as of even the 2008 product to come, there is nothing in sight yet.

    I like the 10sp stuff better than 9 but there is not much that is available for 10sp cassettes. So perhaps it is wiser that tandem manufacturers stay with 9sp for now.

    glenn

  14. #14
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R900 View Post
    The current frame also allows for a disk option, something ours does not, so another plus.
    According to the folks at Trek, there is a disc brake rotor adaptor for the '02-'05 frame: Trek Component Group p/n 210648. The adapter and the dropout were designed to work together. Trek was apparently not sure in late '01 if the disc brake "fad" would last. As you note, in '06 Trek made some updates to the T1000/T2000 frames which included I.S. disc caliper mounts so no adapter is required and increased spacing on the chainstays to allow for a 203mm rotor. Any Trek or Fisher dealer should be able to order the adapter shown here on a hardtail MTB, which is what it was orginally designed for use on.



    I believe your Trek's original rear hub may have been threaded for an Arai drum brake and there are thread-on adapters for disc rotors. The adapter is designed to work with a thread-on rotor adapter or a disc hub; the key is getting the right caliper mount from the caliper manufacturer. Mark Johnson of PrecisionTandems.com has probably spent more time helping folks adapt rear discs to tandems and would likely have both the parts on hand and the best knowledge base on which parts would be required to complete a successful disc installation on a Trek T1000/2000.

    I believe the only shortcoming of the adapter is that it was developed for use on Trek’s mountain bikes. In theory, any disc that mounts to the International Standard (IS) bolt pattern can be used with the adapter. In practice, Hayes brakes would howl on some mountain bikes, but Avid and Shimano brakes did not. It caused a lot of head-scratching at both Trek and Hayes.

    As for rotor size, at least one Trek employee who owns an ‘02/05 Z9000 tandem frame was not able to mount a 203mm rotor due to interference problems with the left chainstay. Thus, the standard 180mm / 6” caliper & rotor is the default for this application. The ’06 Trek tandem model’s disc mount will accommodate a 203mm rotor, but does so by stealing a little bit of heel clearance from the stoker due to the slightly wider rear chain stay opening (still 145mm at the axle).

  15. #15
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    Thanks for this supplementary advice about disk brakes

    One of my main wishes in a new tandem is better braking power - my Santana has only a pair of Shimano 600/deore lx cantilevers, which frankly aren't even close to safe - I drive the bike like I'm driving an 18 wheeler with moped brakes fitted!

    My only bike so far with a supplementary brake was my old Orbit (twin lateral frame) tandem with a small rear drum worked off the same lever as the rear caliper - and that didn't slow down either! Pretty bike, though, with wonderfully smooth rolling "Maxicar" hubs - but too bendy to be in any way efficient. Comparing it to any good tandem would be like comparing an austin healey sprite to a lotus!

    So, to pursue the enquiry - when (not 'if', I've progressed that far) I order a T2000 with project one specification - should an additional drag brake be part of the spec? I see this as a lifetime bike, and have Alps/ N Cal Sierras/ Sri Lanka from the tea plantations to the coast (5000 feet steady downhill) as some of its future tasks!

    Thanks again, I really appreciate your views ( and Seana would appreciate more stopping power!)

  16. #16
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobblyoldgeezer View Post
    should an additional drag brake be part of the spec? I see this as a lifetime bike, and have Alps/ N Cal Sierras/ Sri Lanka from the tea plantations to the coast (5000 feet steady downhill) as some of its future tasks!
    Unless your dealer is offering you a special discount and/or won't extend the discount to you at a latter time, I would suggest buying the tandem with the stock brakes and then evaluate what might work best as you have at least three different configurations to consider:

    1. Dual calipers with supplemental Arai drum / drag brake running off a bar-end shifter: ideal for sustained speed control on very long, steep descents for any team and almost necessary for heavier teams or teams that will be riding with loaded panniers, etc...

    2. Dual calipers with supplemental Avid BB Road 203mm mechanical disc brake set up as a light-duty drag brake running off of a bar-end shifter: good enough as a "just-in-case" supplemental brake for those occasional tours or rides when rim brakes alone may not be sufficient for speed control on a challenging descent for lightweight or middle weight teams. Note that the use of the Avid BB as a "drag brake" is not recommended or endorsed by Avid; however, teams who have used it that way with good success: YRMV / PAYOR.

    3. Front caliper with full-time rear Avid BB Road 203mm mechanical disc brake running off of the right front STI brake lever: perhaps the best of both worlds for light to middle weight teams who find themselves in hilly terrain or wet conditions on a semi-regular basis. While not a true drag-brake that provides the benefit of the set-it-and-forget-it bar-end shifter for sustained speed scrubbing without cramping your hands, for aggressive teams who like to make spirited descents it provides superior downhill braking power to rim brakes with the added benefit of having a very high heat capacity that doesn't drive additional rim-brake heating into the rims and tires.

    When last I checked, the Bontrager Race Lite Tandem wheels still came with left-hand threading that allows it to work with either the Arai drum or a thread-on disc rotor adapter which is what gives you the choice of brakes. You'll want to verify that this is still the case before making your decisions. However, assuming that is the case, you can see that you have the ability to change your mind and your brake configuration without too much trouble or expense beyond the cost of the brake hardware, a bar-end shifter, and a cable splitter that allows you to mate two regular brake cables together for the very-long brake cable run. The latter is recommended as it also seems to cut down on the amount of elasticity that you'll find on very-long brake cable runs.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 07-29-07 at 11:49 AM.

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