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  1. #1
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    looking for a tandem

    We are trying to choose between a Trek T2000 and a Burley Rivazza can anyone help in teh decision?
    Thanks

  2. #2
    Senior Member bentbaggerlen's Avatar
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    Thats easy, Get the Burley.

    I have riden and worked on both the Trek and Burley tandems. I was very disapointed in the Trek tandem as far as the build quality of the frame, very poor welds on two of the frames I have seen, as well as poor paint finish.
    Bentbaggerlen
    "When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." - Arthur Conan Doyle

  3. #3
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentbaggerlen
    I have riden and worked on both the Trek and Burley tandems. I was very disapointed in the Trek tandem as far as the build quality of the frame, very poor welds on two of the frames I have seen, as well as poor paint finish.
    Let's be clear.....

    With regard to your Trek experiences, were these the new Trek T2000 ZR9000 aluminum frames that were introduced last year or the older, mid-90's steel Trek T100 or T200's? The reason I ask was, last year's Burley Rivazza (as well as the Tosa and Tamburello) used the new ZR9000 frames manufactured by Trek for Burley, i.e., the frames were pretty much identical in terms of material, fit and finish -- which is to say, up to both Trek's and Burley's excellent standards. For 2004, Burley is no longer using Trek as their aluminum frame supplier and is, instead, producing their own Aluminum tandems using their own proprietary alloy.

    If you are referring to the "old" Trek T100/T200 tandems, then I would have to agree with your observations. The welds are not as nice as what we see on most tandems today, the finish isn't as high-zoot and they are very heavy (but durable and stiff) compared to the newer models. But, that said, the older Trek T100 and T200 tandems are still being enjoyed by a lot of folks as they are very stable, stiff and usually acquired at a very attractive price, e.g., a great all around recreational / touring tandem. The new models were designed with lessons learned from their T100/T200s, lots of input from folks who ride tandems, and use a really nifty aluminum alloy (ZR9000) developed for Trek by Gary Klein that lends itself nicely to tandem applications.

    Anyway, back to the original question, IMHO and having seen and put my hands both of these brand/model tandems as recently as yesterday, either of these two tandems are an excellent choice and neither one is clearly "better" than the other, they just have their subtle differences. If at all possible, take extended test rides on both (back-to-back-to-back as in Trek-Burley-Trek-Burley) and go with the one that you find the most to your liking.

    I believe both tandems are priced about the same ($3,300). The equipment is very similar (9spd. Ultegra/XTR) and both have conservative steering geometry with ~1.9" - ~2.0" of trail (faster/more trail than Santana but not as much as a Co-Motion). About the biggest "real difference" is that Trek's T2000 is fitted with Bontrager's RaceLite Tandem low-spoke count, integrated aero wheelset (great for go-fast riding and fast recreational rides) whereas the Burley comes with a more conventional 40h White Industries/Velocity Fusion component wheelset that is probably better suited for larger teams and/or a wide range of riding styles/interests, e.g., touring. Burley is offering an optional Rolf integrated wheelset this year for go-fast teams which is, for all intents and purposes, very similar to the Bontrager RaceLite. Both tandems are backed by builders who will be around to honor their warranties for years to come. Oh yeah, Burley's Rivazza comes in nice dark blue and the Trek comes in a medium blue BUT other, optional colors are available for a small upcharge ($200?) via their "Project One" program which the tandems are now part of.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 01-30-05 at 09:32 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member bentbaggerlen's Avatar
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    Yes Mark, The new Trek T2000 ZR9000 tandems. I was really disapointed in the workmanship of the frames and the finish. At the same time the shop owner had bought himself a Burely aluminum tandem. The Burely had much better welds and finish.

    As a welder (nuke/airframe certs) I am pickey about the workmanship I see on frames. On one of the Treks you could see that the welder had burned though the boom tube just behind the rear BB, and then filled it.

    Last night I did see another of the new Trek tandems in another shop, and I have to say this one was perfect as far as the welding and paint finish.

    The older Trek tandems T100/T200 are just as you said "very stable, stiff and usually acquired at a very attractive price, e.g., a great all around recreational / touring tandem" When Trek ended tandem production I was lucky and got four for a local ride with the blind group. Unluckly for me, all of them in the large frame size. I ended up having to "shorten" three of them so as to fit shorter riders. Had one myself for loaded touring.
    Bentbaggerlen
    "When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." - Arthur Conan Doyle

  5. #5
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentbaggerlen
    Yes Mark, The new Trek T2000 ZR9000 tandems.
    Just wanted to be sure. Perhaps it was this kind of production quality variability that caused Burley to rethink its relationship with Trek after only one year.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 01-30-05 at 09:32 PM.

  6. #6
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    Mark,

    Is Burley getting their aluminum tubing from Trek and building the frames themselves or are they procuring material from another source (doesn't appear to be Easton...)?
    What's your thoughts on the 2005 Rivazza Race version? It looks like the Alpha Q fork is specifically made for Burley, ie. a tandem version of their CX fork. Any knowledge on rake, weight compared to the Alpha X2 (or if they would let you trade forks at the factory?)

    Thanks,
    Kip

  7. #7
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Godzilla
    Is Burley getting their aluminum tubing from Trek and building the frames themselves or are they procuring material from another source (doesn't appear to be Easton...)?
    Trek built Burley's aluminum frames using their ZR9000 alloy in 2002 year and Burley switched back to in-house production with their own "proprietary" tubing made by ????? in 2003. It's called 'VeraLite 7000' and I have no idea who actually makes it for them. I'm fairly confident that it's not Trek as they don't sell their proprietary tubing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Godzilla
    What's your thoughts on the 2005 Rivazza Race version? It looks like the Alpha Q fork is specifically made for Burley, ie. a tandem version of their CX fork. Any knowledge on rake, weight compared to the Alpha X2 (or if they would let you trade forks at the factory?)
    The Rivazza looks like a pretty good value. The Co-Motion Roadster would be it's competition and the Burley is less expensive. Both offer optional Rolf Wheel and a carbon fork upgrades and, again, the Burley comes out the door for less money. The Alpha Q CX fork is a beefed-up version of their standard CX fork; 47mm rake w/395mm fork legs and about 650 gr before cutting the steerer. With the 47mm rake, a Burley with the CX fork should have steering trail that is similar to Co-Motion's carbon fork-equipped bikes (45mm rake / 387mm fork legs) . The X2 forks have been shorter (374mm) than the CX in the past and that's been a complaint; not sure if they ever changed it and True Temper has taken that info off of their Web site. I believe the rake options on the X2 are 48mm, 44m and 42mm and weight is about 100 gr less than the CX.

    By the way, great user ID... Did Anne approve that one?
    Last edited by livngood; 01-04-05 at 09:02 PM.

  8. #8
    cbike_47909
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    We purchased an 04 Trek T2000 after owning a Burley and Cannondale tandems. We were impressed with the componentry based on the price and really like the wheels. One season down and the bike has performed flawlesly.
    During the build I found the rear brake cable routing was tight getting around the seatpost and the front brake cable routing used a cheesy 45 degree noodle. After revising both of these we are very satisfied with the performance. We did opt for Campy Corus shifters inlieu of the Ultegra STIs however either system does equally well.
    Oh and I do concur with the other poster on paint. It could have been better but I do think it is durable.
    Charlie Myer

  9. #9
    K&M
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    I too have been wondering whether to buy a Rivazza or a T2000. The T2000 can be had for a bit less, but the Rivazza is reputed to be lighter and to have more trail (i.e. be more responsive and handle more like a co-motion - which I rode and loved, but can't afford). I have been unable to dig up any definitive information on any of this or to locate a Rivazza anywhere in CA that I can try out

    Have the 2005 Rivazzas appeared anywhere yet?

  10. #10
    Senior Member wsurfn's Avatar
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    We have a 2004 Burley Tosa. It is 7000 Series Aluminium and produced in Oregon. Mark's original post was in 2003 when the aluminium models were made by Trek (ZR9000).

    I feel it rides nice, and is a quality machine. No problems at all so far. We like ours a lot.

    2005' s have a rear disc brake option, that the 2004's don't.

    Gold Country is in CA?

  11. #11
    K&M
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    Yes. Gold Country Cyclery is in CA. We have been there. They were nice enough to give us lots of helpful info, didn't mind us drooling on their brand new AriZona (what a dandy of a bike!), and let us ride a steel Co-Motion that, even though it is actually heavier than the Trek, felt, in the words of my stoker "10 pounds lighter," due to the more responsive handling. Unfortunately, however, they - like everyone else - did not have any Burleys in stock.

    The unbelievable difference in handling between the Co-Motion and the Trek T2000 we were used to got me interested enough in the subject of tandem geometery that I spent a lot of time googling my way around finding all kinds of interesting stuff in all kinds of places (some of the best authored by Mark Livingood, but also discussions by the tandem makers themselves, including the Co-Motion folks and Ericsson). It was all very interesting and I know a lot more now than I did about bike design theory and how head tube angle, fork rake and wheel/tire size contribute to handling characteristics. None of this, however, tells me what it feels like to ride the Burley.

  12. #12
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    Steele at Gold Country is a very knowledgable tandem dealer; in our opinion, the Burley is the biggest bang for the $$ when put against many brands, including Trek.
    Drooling over the ariZona tandem? Did you get to heft it and/or test ride it? Who sez you need a metal tandem?!
    Have over 6,500 miles on our ariZona tandem now.

    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/Zonatandem

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