wxlidar

Hi all,

The stoker and I have put ~80 miles on our Speedster over the past couple weeks. We are having a blast with it. But I have a couple questions and am looking for opinions.

First, the bike is spec'd with Shimano 10 speed ultegra components. Overall they are fine but I am getting a bit frustrated with the lack of precision when downshifting on the cogs. There is not enough tactile feedback so the shifts aren't complete. For example, I try to downshift one cog and it goes 1.5. I have to hit the upshift lever, which clicks, to get it to settle down. I have similar brifters on my half-bike and don't have as much trouble. Although I haven't checked, I don't believe this is an adjustment issue because the gears will change smoothly on occasion.

So my question is should I give it some more time or change over to bar-end shifters? I have bar-ends on my touring/commuter and love them. And if I do make the switch, is it appropriate for me to involve Mel at TandemsEast or is this asking too much after the sale?

My second frustration/question involves the flightdeck computer. There is no automatic ride time with this thing. You can start and stop it by hitting the left hood button. Of course, I hit the dumb button several times during the ride which stops and starts my ride time making it useless. I would disable the left button but I need it to zero the computer. Anyone have a suggestion on dealing with this issue? If I decide to ditch the flightdeck, should I involve Mel?

Thanks,
Dave

KRhea

Your derailleur needs a simple adjustment to solve your problem. Derailleurs should not "occasionally" shift good, especially Ultegra level and especially the rear derail.
Front derailleur "challenges" are common and are probably the bain of most home mechanics as well as shop guys. The rear set-up is pretty easy to dial in.
If you do your own wrenching go to Parktool.com and check out there repair information. It's excellent, with great photos and written for everyone to understand.

Best of luck.

KRhea

TandemGeek

I am getting a bit frustrated with the lack of precision when downshifting on the cogs. There could be several things going on, such as a poorly or mis-seated ferrule, excessive cable drag, etc. Suggest you contact Mel for support to resolve given how new it is. If it's systemic they'll have seen it on other tandems similar to yours with that system and will know exactly where to look which may curtail some unnecessary work.

So my question is should I give it some more time or change over to bar-end shifters? Unless there's a problem in the right-hand STI shifter, moving to bar-end indexed shifters won't solve the problem unless you inadvertently solve it via an incidental cable or housing change. If that were the case, those same changes would have likely solved the problem without changing out the STI levers. Now, if you just wanted bar-ends, that's a different story and I believe you could have spec'd them instead of the STI levers when you ordered the tandem. Regardless, I'd make it part of your discussion with Mel.

My second frustration/question involves the flightdeck computer. I have never used one, but what you're describing doesn't sound quite right. Hopefully someone who is well-versed with the Flight Deck will advise if there is something you're missing. Short of that, here's a link to Shimano's web site for the Flight Deck manual downloads: https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont...ight_deck.html

brewer45

I always involve the LBS with a new bike. It's in their best business interest to make sure that your bike is set up and working properly and that you're thrilled with their service. Give Mel a chance to make things right.

We took delivery of a new Speedster on Monday evening, and Tuesday morning it was back to the shop to deal with some fine-tuning of the shifters (front and rear) and the disc brakes. Took about an hour, including completely repositioning the front derailleur--something I could never have accomplished by fiddling and swearing.

Cheers!

wxlidar

Thanks for the replies. I'll be sure to include Mel in the problem solving process.

Tonight I'll check the right brifter to remind myself how it is acting. It just seems like there isn't any way to tell how far to push it to have it downshift an integer number of gears. Should there be a click or a bump or something?

Another shifting issue is when changing from the middle to the inner-most chainring. If there is even the slightest amount of tension on the chain it has a hard time shifting. Is the front deralleur spring adjustable?

I'll let you all know how it turns out.

Thanks,
Dave

brewer45

The problem shifting from the middle to the small chainring was exactly what sent me back to the shop. As I said previously, after fiddling with the limit screws and springs and cable, the tech completely repositioned the derailleur (raised and twisted it a bit on the downtube, then reset the limit screws and cable). Once we got it dialed in, it works just fine.

Cheers!

merlinextraligh

No expert on Flight Deck, but my bet is that "Auto Start" is a preference matter. I'm pretty sure you can opt to set it up to either track rolling time or total time.

Retro Grouch 

The first problem sounds to me like your shift cable has stretched just a tad. I'm thinking that turning the barrel adjuster about 1/4 turn will fix it.

The second proble has a simple cure, but it's undesirable to a lot of people. Don'e ride with the computer in the speed/trip mileage displays. If you ride in the speed/cadence display, for example, accidentally hitting the left button won't stop all of the trip functions.

BloomingCyclist

I had this very same problem. My solution was / is to take some thick Dr. Scholl's mole foam (not the thinner mole skin) and cut a small doughnut shaped piece (about 1/2 inch across) with a smaller hole inside just large enough to fit around the button. Pull the rubber hood cover back, stick the doughnut pad around the button, pull the rubber hood back in place...now the pad keeps me from accidentally pressing the button enough to turn it off. However, when I do want to push it on purpose, it works fine. I suppose a ready made Dr. Scholl's corn pad that's already round with a hole would work too but I happened to have some mole foam and it has worked fine for 10,000 plus miles. I have changed the pad one time when I had to take the original one off to get inside to clean a contact / connection point for the flitedeck.

Adding a clarifying comment: You will have to turn on the flitedeck when you initially begin your ride so even after you've cured your accidental button pushing it will not autostart. However, the timer will behave well and run while you're riding and stop timing when you stop the bike and if you make short stops for rest, eating, whatever, the flitedeck will remain on and continue timing where it left off when you start up again. If the stop is long enough the flite deck will turn itself off and you will have to turn it on again.

Bloomington, IN

bschoen

We have a Flight Deck on our tandem. I've never suffered the problem you cite, but have read posts from several others who have. It appears to me that hand placement (being a personal preference issue) is the sole determining factor. Either you put your hands/fingers where they inadvertently push the left button or you don't. That said, the suggestion about using moleskin seems perfectly plausible to me. Oh - Flight Decks do NOT have the option to "auto start", they're totally manual - so if you keep it you're stuck with that. All that said, I'd never get rid of mine as I like seeing the gears on the indicator.

Best of Luck.

jgg3

There is a definite click on downshift. One cog per click. If it ain't doing that, it ain't right. Sounds like an adjustment problem, or binding of some kind.

DBC Steve

There have been problems with the 10-speed Co-Motion tandems when they are mated with the XTR rear derailleur and IRD wide range cassettes. The IRD web site advises not using their wide range cassette with the XTR, but Co-Motion specs these bikes that way. I've heard from several mechanics that the problem is more with the cassettes, but your mileage may vary. I've seen substantial email traffic on this subject, but nothing that I can find on the Co-Mo web site.

The solution for a friend of mine's new Co-Motion tandem was to shift (no pun intended) back to nine speed, and use a Shimano 9-speed wide range cassette. His LBS did this conversion by using some sort of doo-dad device attached where the cable comes into the rear derailleur, and could then use his 10-speed brifters without having to buy new 9 speed brifters. I think Co-Motion swapped the cassette at no cost, and he paid 30 bucks for the doo-dad.

But ... this only applies if your 10-speed tandem comes with a wide range cassette and an XTR derailleur. If you have a regular road rear derailleur and cassette (for example, 12-27) you most likely have an adjustment problem.

As to the Flight Deck, you can avoid starting and stopping by shifting to the second screen like Retro Grouch says -- the one that shows cadence as well as speed. We've never had a problem with our Speedster. However, I did have a similar problem with my 10-speed Cannondale Synapse that bugged me for many months. I tried many possible solutions and concluded that it was a combination of a design problem with sensitivity of the buttons, and the different design of the 10-speed Ultegra brifters compared to the 9-speed Ultegras on the Speedster. I gave up and went back to a simple Cateye. I'd suggest you talk to your LBS and see if they can figure this out, since a Flight Deck is much more useful on a tandem than a half bike.

wxlidar

Thanks again for the comments. I spent some time with the bike this evening (no riding). First, I checked the right brifter and it seems fine, there is definitely a click when shifting. So I put the bike on the trainer and started running though the cogs. At first it shifted fine but as I went through the cogs it got worse. By the time I was on the 6th or 7th cog it was skipping. Definitely cable stretch. I tweaked it and now is seems fine. The fact that it shifted fine over a few gears and not others gave the impression that it was intermittent when in actuality it wasn't. Thanks again for the suggestions.

DBC Steve:
Yep, Mel knows about this mating problem with the XTR derailleur and IRD cassette so he used a long cage Ultegra derailleur instead. We originally wanted an 11-32 cassette instead of the spec'd 11-34 because of the drastic change going to the 34t cog. But the bike came with the 11-34 and we took it anyway. Haven't had much of an issue with it because we rarely use the 34t cog.

As for the FlightDeck issue, I implemented BloomingCyclist's fix. I pulled out the moleskin (two layers, it's all I had) and made little donuts to go around the button. I also remove the little 'nib' that is on the inside of the hood that presses on the button. The button still works but I have to purposely push it.

So all seems well. I'll try to report back after our next ride.

Thanks,
Dave

jgg3

It actually sounds like 9/10 mismatch. Cable stretch can be adjusted out; mismatch can't. But hard to be certain from this virtual distance.

darelldd

Co-Mo riding friend here, checking in! Yes, I had what sounds like quite similar shifting issues. And my issues were *completely* solved by going to 9-sp XT cassette, and a Jtech converter. The thing now shifts as well, if not better, than my single. My LBS (where I ordered the bike) was not able to solve - or even diagnose - the problem after many attempts. I was left with, "It is a tandem, that's how they shift." And for a few months I tried to live with it. Then I found Steve, and he got the ball rolling for me again, and with the help of a not-quite-so-local LBS, I got it solved completely. Using the same weak-springed XTR RD, but mated with a proper cassette. The IRD cassette has issues! Truly, it is the devil.

If I adjusted my cable tension so I could upsift, then I could never bang it down one gear. If I allowed downshifts, there was no way to upshift just one gear. I'd typically try going for two up, and then click one down. Often when I thought I was solidly in a gear (no sound from the rear) a mile later when I stood on the pedals, the thing would shift all on it's own - and that just wasn't pretty. Some days it seemed like the shifting barely worked. Almost seemed like it depended on the weather! But in genera, it would screw up sooner than later. It works so well now, that I'm still amazed every time I ride the thing!

I see that you even mentioned the disk brake adjustments as well. My purchasing LBS also couldn't get that right, and those had to be adjusted by my newly-found expert as well.

Good luck! I hope you get this solved. It is hard to enjoy the bike when the shifting annoys you constantly! Been there, done that.

darelldd

Unfortunately, you're still stuck with the IRD cassette - which is a problem child. I am convinced that the IRD cassette was the bulk of the problem. My shifting isn't just better now. It is perfect. And I am using the XTR RD! The XT 9-sp cassette gives you the full 11-34 range without the big jump. It is a fantastic cassette if you want to keep wide-range like I did.

Xanti Andia

We have a Co-Mo Mocha with the same set up, 10sp 11-36 IRD cluster and have the same shifting problems. A bit far from Mel to have him look at it. LBS has played with the adjustments, improved but never as nice as my Shimano 105 group on my road bike (9sp 11-26 cluster). I blame it on a tradoff between a tight cluster and the broad gear range we need on a touring tandem, maybe this discussion will lead me to other fixes.

darelldd

I'm not guessing at the solution here... I'm serious when I say that the Cassette IS the issue.
Here is what it looks like where you're done:


Here are your choices:

1. Go 9sp and buy an XT 11-34 cassette to keep your wide range. Install a Jtech converter to keep using your 10sp brifters.

2. Stay 10sp and buy a new low-range road cassette and lose the wide range.

Either one will work perfectly. You've got to get rid of the IRD (you wrote 11-36... it is 11-34 just like the 9sp XT but with one huge jump at the end).

Please know that this frustrated me for most of a year before I got it solved. I would LOVE to help others avoid what I went through. NO amount of adjustment will ever fix this problem. You've got to get rid of that IRD cassette. A good quality 10sp wide-range cassette just doesn't exist today apparently.

wxlidar

I'm definitely going to keep your suggestions in mind for the future if I continue to have shifting issues. Of the two I think changing the cassette makes more sense for me. Thanks for the info.

That's an interesting application of a travel agent (it looks like one) on the rear derailleur.

-Dave

darelldd

It isn't a Travel agent, though the concept is similar. It is a Jteck Shiftmate, and is specific for this application. I linked to it above... here is the link again:
https://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

There are many versions. This one will convert 9sp shifters to 10sp cassette, or as in my case, the other way around. You just flip the pulley.

darelldd

Oops. Almost missed this.

I'm not sure I understand... BOTH of my suggestions involve changing the cassette. Your choice is between wide range and road range. You must go 9sp for the former, or you can stay with 10sp for the latter.

wxlidar

Sorry, I meant I would stay with 10 speed shifters and just change the cassette.

darelldd

Oh-oh. I still must not have been totally clear.

Both suggestions stay with 10sp shifters AND change the cassette. One converts you to a new wide-range 9sp cassette, the other converts you to a new low-range 10sp cassette. Your shifters never change, as that would be an unecessary expense.

BloomingCyclist

I appreciate the first hand-hand account of successfully dealing with the problem. I have a 2006 Santana (Niobium) with Ultegra and a 10 speed wide range cassette (11-34) and a 2006 XTR rear derailleur. The 2007 or later XTR (with the shiny X cage) has been targeted by some as the cause of problems. Our friend, Counselguy, had this newer XTR on their Calfee with the 11-34 at first and it has been replaced by a 2006 XTR and is doing well. Nevertheless, I find it difficult to believe that the newer model is the cause of problems. The newer one doesn't have the cable adjuster at the derailleur. The anecdotes are accumulating but I suppose there are many Co-Motions and Santana's that are being sold and doing well with the newer XTR and wide range cassette. It would be great to have data.

When we purchased the tandem in January 2006, we were coming from each of us riding singles with very crisp shifting Campagnolo 10 speed systems (mine Chorus, my wife's Veloce) with 13-29 rear cassette which we rode across America in 2005. It did take a while for me to become bilingual and fluent in Shimano shifting but it shifted perfectly when I pressed the correct lever. After a few thousand miles, it quit shifting perfectly and in my over zealous and underthinking approach to fix it I purchased a new cassette and a new front large chainring as well. It turned out that the real problem was a cable that was fraying in the brifter which kept the cable from allowing the downshifts to be smooth in the rear and a misaligned front derailleur which had messed the front shifting up. (I was used to the Campagnolo brifter cables lasting many more thousands of miles and wasn't expecting the Shimano cable to fray - which it does because of the tighter radius it goes around in the brifter). It is also sensitive to any drag caused by dirt in the teflon cables under the bottom brackets.

When I fixed the real problem (cable) and and alignment of the front derailleur which had been moved / kicked, or something, and took the time to adjust it not just in the stand but on the road too, it shiftted great again in my opinion.

I am curious if the JTek device, in addition to allowing the 10speed lever to shift to a nine-speed cassette, makes for reduced cable friction as compared to a regular housing which is usually curved in a fairly sharp radius which would improve rear derailleur response.

I believe my friend with the Calfee and older XTR may still have the 2007 XTR. It would be a good experiment for me to put it on to see if the shifting becomes poor with that derailleur. I could do it this summer when school is out.

Just one more thing. On the Campy shifting, when the button is pushed to shift to a higher gear (smaller cog), the derailleur moves as soon as the button is pushed. I think my brain was trained to do the subtle ease up of pedal pressure for that movement. On the Shimano, when the lever is pushed, the derailleur doesn't move until you let go which means the subtle ease up on pressure needs to be when I let go, not when I push. I imagine that has affected my shifting smoothness at times.

Again, thanks to those that contributed on this thread. I've been curious about the JTek for a long time although I have been interested because I may eventually use one to be able to use Campagnolo brifters with the Shimano rear end.

Bloomington, IN

darelldd

When you speak of an 11-32 10sp cassette, I can only assume that you are talking about the IRD, correct?

Just to be clear, I have what is considered the worst XTR RD - the 2007. And while I'd still rather have a different year, or an XT on there, I can tell you that my "bad" XTR is working just fine with the 9sp cassette. The IRD is not precisely made. Too many poor tolerances, and not enough "shift help" teeth cuts to make it work right. The XT cassette is awesome.

I'm also quite sure that the Shiftmate removes some friction from that final bend as you suggest. The device is high quality, with a sealed bearing roller. It removes at least half of that final loop, so it must help a bit.