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  1. #1
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    Rolf or Velocity Custom build?

    If you were buying a new set of wheels for your tandem (rear disc brake required), which of the two wheel sets would you prefer? These wheels will NOT be used for touring, team weight is just under 300 lbs, riding profile will include long climbs and descents, bike is a CF Calfee. My interest is in your opinion regarding reliability and ride quality of the wheel set. Please respond if you have a different wheel set to recommend.

    Inquiring minds what to know!!!

  2. #2
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    If I could only have one wheelset for a road tandem it would be a conventional set of wheels, i.e., your 'Velocity Custom build'. They're more durable, more reliable, and easy to fix with relatively inexpensive spokes and rims that you can acquire from a multitude of places.

    That said, lots of folks are using only the Rolfs and have had no problems. However, there have also been many reports of non-catastrophic failures that required the wheels to go back to Rolf for warranty repairs or replacement.... which Rolf seems willing to do. However, non-warranty repairs (pot hole rim dings, longer-term fatigue failures, etc.) are usually very expensive and, again, the wheels have to go back to Rolf for service.

    Again, my recommendation stands and if you can afford two wheelsets, knock yourself out and pick up a set of the Rolf's or some other exotic wheelset for "special occasions" when the added bling and/or slight aero drag or weight reductions would yield some real or mojo-inspired advantage.

    A summary of our real-world evaluation of five different wheelsets on our CF Calfee from last year can be found here: http://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem_build.html

    You'll find more comments on our Rolf '08, Rolf '07, Topolino AX3.0-T, and two different Velocity/White Ind. wheel builds throughout the journal entries. Just search each page for 'wheels' to get to what you're looking for or target the pages where wheels are listed in the title or description of each update; index is here and at the top or bottom of each page: http://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem.html

    We're presently riding on our 36h Velocity Deep-V / White Ind wheelset for the winter and have a set of '07 Rolfs and a set of '08 Topolino AX3.0Ts sitting in wheelbags. Each set of wheels give the Calfee a different look and ride feel, none are objectionable... but the exotics have had their respective issues. The conventional wheels are, well, no-brainers: they work well and you don't think about them or wince when you hit a pot hole... or collect a BFS (big friggin stick) in your low-spoke count front wheel's spokes: big-time pucker factor as that was a new one on me. The latter was the final motivation for putting away the exotics during the fall and winter months when road debris is the most prevailent.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 11-12-08 at 06:39 AM.

  3. #3
    SoCal is great! ElCiclista's Avatar
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    TandemGeek,

    That is a great evaluation you made on the wheels. I am currently ridding the Rolfs and I do hear and feel the lateral flex on technical descents, at first it was quite disturbing but as I rode the wheels more I got used to them. But you are correct the Rolfs are a bit freaky when it comes to tight cornering. At fast speeds.

  4. #4
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    Velocity Wheel builds?

    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    You'll find more comments on our Rolf '08, Rolf '07, Topolino AX3.0-T, and two different Velocity/White Ind. wheel builds throughout the journal entries. .
    TG,
    On your Velocity wheel builds you use White Ind hubs; have you ever tried Chris King hubs on any of your wheel builds?

    You switch between disc and conventional brake on your various wheel sets. If you order a custom Calfee frame that is rear disc brake compatable, will the frame also have lugs on the rear stays for conventional rim brakes? I ask this questions with dual wheel sets in mind; i.e. everyday disc brake Velocity and secondary Topolino (non Disc). I guess this is a question I should confirm with Calfee when I order my frame next week.

    As mentioned above, I am getting ready to order my frame. Do you have any recommendations for things you would have done different when you had your custom frame built? My frame will be S&S coupled, with four water bottle cage mounts, and air pump pegs. My wife and I have decided on a custom painted frame, as we just can't add another black bike to our stable.

    Thanks for all the info!

  5. #5
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    have you ever tried Chris King hubs on any of your wheel builds?

    We have Chris King hubs on our Ventana El Conquistador off-road tandem... Very nice and bomb-proof. However, I prefer the White hubs for road tandems as they're far less expensive, lighter, but have proven to be more than durable and reliable enough for the road based on 6 years of use on our other road tandems. Well, that and the way those big carbon tubes transmit on-bike-generated sounds, I can only imagine how loud that 'killer bee' CK hub sound would be.

    If you order a custom Calfee frame that is rear disc brake compatable, will the frame also have lugs on the rear stays for conventional rim brakes?

    The frame will only have what you specify. I specified both the I.S. disc mount and a brake bridge for a short-reach caliper (25mm - 28mm max tire size). If you plan to run bigger tires you'd need to specify either a brake bridge for standard reach (Shimano BR650) calipers or cantilever brake bosses. You'd also need to discuss forks to make sure you get the right front and rear brake combination; leave nothing to chance... discuss and specify everything in writing. Additionally, you'll want to foot-stomp leaving sufficient rotor clearance on the left-side chain stay to allow for some protective clear tape to keep you from nicking up the paint when you install and remove your rotor-equipped wheel(s).

    Do you have any recommendations for things you would have done different when you had your custom frame built?

    Just make sure everything you want is clearly outlined in writing, down to the decal placement. For example, I specified some alternative water bottle mounting locations to ensure we could put a large bottle on Debbie's seat tube and I also wanted the water bottle on the back of my seat tube placed down low... with the pump placed on top of the boom tube. I even sent an illustrated drawing along to make sure what I was looking for was clearly understood. When the frame arrived the decals weren't quite right and neither were the bottle mount locations; however, my documentation clearly conveyed my directions so the re-work was covered by Calfee and, thankfully, it was rather easy to re-work since our frame was nude. There was also a bit of a qwerk with the rear brake stop as I specified a somewhat different brake cable routing than they had been using: below the waterline of the top tube instead of along it. Unfortunately, when coupled with our frame's somewhat unusual dimensions the cable stop location made for an unconventional routing of the caliper brake cable housing. Aside from those nits, everything else came out fine and James & Craig have always been easy to work with and gotten things squared away in short order.

    It took a few months to get everything sorted out, but it's been well worth the effort as it's really a dream ride and there's nothing I'd change about it at this point. Again, you'll find some other details regarding impressions, tweaks, and changes that we've made along the way in the various installments of my Calfee Journal... and several of the things we specified for our frame have now been incorporated into the newer frames, e.g., revised eccentric design, brake cable placement, so you're covered on those.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 11-13-08 at 06:29 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member VaultGuru's Avatar
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    Tandem Geek is right on. We just built up a Calfee Tetra and followed their buildup posts to help us with ours.
    I only have Rolf wheels for it. We love the wheels, but...anything that needs to be done to the wheels need to be sent to Rolf. I had about 4k on the wheelset prior to taking the bike to Europe. The rear wheel had a couple of nicks on the drive side spokes, but both wheels were still true. I sent the rear to Rolf. They repaired it and turned it around within four days. However, the rear wheel is now out of true (700 miles) and I have to return it to Rolf again. Disappointing. I will probably look for a "dily ride" set of wheels and keep the Rolf's for special occasions.

    I saw the comments on disc brakes. We installed a Avid disc on the back. There is a screw-on spacer that is needed on the non-drive side to connect the disc to. I got one that was 20mm thick. The clearance between the chainstay and the disc was too tight. I ordered a Santana spacer, but it would not screw onto the Rolf hub. No problem with Shimano or Phil Wood. I ended up milling the spacer from 20mm to 17mm. It now works perfectly. Just something to be aware of.
    Cheers

  7. #7
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaultGuru View Post
    There is a screw-on spacer that is needed on the non-drive side to connect the disc to. I got one that was 20mm thick. I ended up milling the spacer from 20mm to 17mm. It now works perfectly. Just something to be aware of.
    For those who don't want to mess around with machining the DT/Swiss thread-on disc rotor adapters, I'm pretty sure they make them in several different widths. Tandems East has sold a number of Calfees with discs and learned about the tight tolerances early on and keeps the more narrow adapters in stock. I believe Precision Tandems may also have the adapters in different widths. 17mm or 18mm would seem to be the 'better' spec vs. 20mm for Calfees.

    That said, as recently mentioned and illustrated in this posting from another thread, we're currently running the White Ind. Daisy rear hub with thread-on 20mm adapter and rotor is about as close as I'd want it to be. However, as noted in one of my journal entries, there was almost no clearance when I did the initial test fit of the Avid & rotor using a wheel built up on a White Ind. MI6 disc hub.

    Again, just something to be mindful of. Personally, I prefer the bolt-on rotor hubs like the MI6 but there's just very little margin for error on the hub spec (and the White Ind. hub was a bit out of spec) with most Calfees.

  8. #8
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    If you ride in high winds much you might consider getting a lower profile Velocity rim.
    Ed

  9. #9
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    On our c/f Zona tandem we utilize King hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims and DT Revolution spokes; 32H front, 36H rear We do not have a disc setup.
    Current rear wheel has 23,000 miles on it; the only issue is that rim needs replacing as we hit some debris pretty hard and wobberknockered the rim acouple weeks ago.
    Front wheel have broken 2 spoke nipples around the 20,000 mile mark.
    Highly recommend Velocity rims and CK hubs.
    These are our everyday wheels and we weigh in at just under 250 lbs as a team.
    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  10. #10
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    We spec'd our Calfee with Chris King hubs and Velocity rims and they have been flawless so far (only about 900 miles so far). Be aware of the Chris King wine on descents some people find it annoying. We have our bike setup for both brake types but I don't see us riding with out the disc as most of our riding is in the west with long descents and I just like the security of the disc brake. If topolino comes out with a disc hub we would like a set of those wheels as we got to use the Calfee bamboo tandem with those wheels and really liked them. Tandem Geeks recommendations about water bottle mounting is good as a tall bottle is a tight fit on the stokers rear carrier. We ride a small/small so a large size might not have the problem.. BTW we absolutely love our CF Calfee but you do need to pay close attention to detail during the build process. We had to return our cranks after our initial rides as they were not true and caused shifting problems however Craig personally called us and asked for there return as ours were the first one sold and apparently a truing step was not completed,they now work great and shifting is as it should be. Now that the alu couplers are available the cost went down as did the weight which doesn't happen very often. We had a custom paint job done and get lots of comments on it but id does make it more stressful to pack in the cases for travel. We may get a trisports wheel case and put the wheels in it and put the rest of the bike in one case as the wheels make the pack job hard and TSA never gets it right after they inspect it.

  11. #11
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justcrankn View Post
    If you ride in high winds much you might consider getting a lower profile Velocity rim.
    Ya got me on this one. The following isn't a perfect math model, but it attempts to make my point based on overall rim/tire profile and wheel construction.

    Of the following wheels, which one would be the worst to have in a heavy cross-wind situation?

    36 spoke, using 30mm deep rim + 23mm tire = 53mm profile
    40 spoke, using 25mm deep rim + 28mm tire = 53mm profile
    48 spoke using 22mm deep rim + 32mm tire = 54mm profile

    My money's on the last one... but I'm guessing the differences are fairly marginal and subjective.

    We've used Deep-Vs or the Mavic equivalent (CXP30's) with 23mm and 25mm tire for over a decade in just about every conceivable type of weather short of an ice storm or blizzard. I honestly can't ever recall myself even giving a second thought to the 30mm rim depth being an exacerbating factor to the normal cross wind effects and it's influence on steering, noting we used 40h Mavic T217 rims with 23mm tires prior to the CXP30s. Now, I will volunteer that our Rolf's with their 34mm deep rims seem to be more twitchy in cross winds; however, it's still not all that pronounced or hard to deal with and may have more to do with the minimal cross section of the paired, low-spoke network than simply the rim/tire profile.

    Bottom Line: I think it's a valid concern when you start getting into rim depths like the 52mm Zipp 404 or 82mm Zipp 808 and, most certainly, tri-spoke wheels. But, for the most common types of road rims and tires that folks use for every day tandem cycling the differences are all in the noise level where other factors such as rider skills become a bigger variable.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 11-14-08 at 06:11 AM.

  12. #12
    Ride it like you stole it WheresWaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Bottom Line: I think it's a valid concern when you start getting into rim depths like the 52mm Zipp 404 or 82mm Zipp 808 and, most certainly, tri-spoke wheels. But, for the most common types of road rims and tires that folks use for every day tandem cycling the differences are all in the noise level where other factors such as rider skills become a bigger variable.
    Just for accuracy, the ZIPP 505 rim used in the 404 clincher is 58mm deep not 52 as stated. Same goes for the ZIPP 360 Tubular rim.

    Otherwise agree with all written so far.
    "Never use your face as a brake pad" - Jake Watson

  13. #13
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaultGuru View Post
    Tandem Geek is right on. We just built up a Calfee Tetra and followed their buildup posts to help us with ours.
    I only have Rolf wheels for it. We love the wheels, but...anything that needs to be done to the wheels need to be sent to Rolf. I had about 4k on the wheelset prior to taking the bike to Europe. The rear wheel had a couple of nicks on the drive side spokes, but both wheels were still true. I sent the rear to Rolf. They repaired it and turned it around within four days. However, the rear wheel is now out of true (700 miles) and I have to return it to Rolf again. Disappointing. I will probably look for a "dily ride" set of wheels and keep the Rolf's for special occasions.

    I saw the comments on disc brakes. We installed a Avid disc on the back. There is a screw-on spacer that is needed on the non-drive side to connect the disc to. I got one that was 20mm thick. The clearance between the chainstay and the disc was too tight. I ordered a Santana spacer, but it would not screw onto the Rolf hub. No problem with Shimano or Phil Wood. I ended up milling the spacer from 20mm to 17mm. It now works perfectly. Just something to be aware of.
    Cheers
    You can true the wheels yourself - as long as you comply with their tension requirements - and quite frankly if the wheel is considerably out of true - it may indicate a problem with the rim that can't be fixed with a simply true of the wheel. You need a narrow nut driver - but you can get them from Rolf. The same with the disc adaptor - Rolf sells one for their wheels, mine came with my CoMo as the disc was installed when I bought the bike.
    Administrator and Contributing Editor - Vortex Media Group

  14. #14
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
    ... as long as you comply with their tension requirements.
    But, to do that you need to have a DT tension meter, at least based on what the folks at Rolf told me when I was trying to get them to confirm if my Park OR my Wheelsmith tension meter readings on the '08 wheels were within spec. Their response was, only the DT model is accurate enough to use on their wheels as there's just too much variability in the Park Tools and Wheelsmith instruments at the higher tension levels.

    More information in this thread from May '08: Truing Rolf Prima wheels

    Moreover, if your wheels are still under warranty and you or anyone else works on them who is not an authorized by Rolf you run the risk of voiding your warranty.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Ya got me on this one. The following isn't a perfect math model, but it attempts to make my point based on overall rim/tire profile and wheel construction.

    Of the following wheels, which one would be the worst to have in a heavy cross-wind situation?

    36 spoke, using 30mm deep rim + 23mm tire = 53mm profile
    40 spoke, using 25mm deep rim + 28mm tire = 53mm profile
    48 spoke using 22mm deep rim + 32mm tire = 54mm profile

    My money's on the last one... but I'm guessing the differences are fairly marginal and subjective.

    We've used Deep-Vs or the Mavic equivalent (CXP30's) with 23mm and 25mm tire for over a decade in just about every conceivable type of weather short of an ice storm or blizzard. I honestly can't ever recall myself even giving a second thought to the 30mm rim depth being an exacerbating factor to the normal cross wind effects and it's influence on steering, noting we used 40h Mavic T217 rims with 23mm tires prior to the CXP30s. Now, I will volunteer that our Rolf's with their 34mm deep rims seem to be more twitchy in cross winds; however, it's still not all that pronounced or hard to deal with and may have more to do with the minimal cross section of the paired, low-spoke network than simply the rim/tire profile.

    Bottom Line: I think it's a valid concern when you start getting into rim depths like the 52mm Zipp 404 or 82mm Zipp 808 and, most certainly, tri-spoke wheels. But, for the most common types of road rims and tires that folks use for every day tandem cycling the differences are all in the noise level where other factors such as rider skills become a bigger variable.
    Now you got me on this one. 1)Three different wheel combos with the same profile, what's the point?
    2)Shouldn't wheels with a minimal spoke cross section be easier in a cross wind?
    3)Rider skills are pretty much a constant for each ride. I want equipment that will work the best for our team and skill. I have heard very experienced teams report being blown into the next lane by high winds so I know cross winds are an issue for others also.
    Veering OT so I'll start a new thread.
    Ed

  16. #16
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    1)Three different wheel combos with the same profile, what's the point?

    You recommended a lower-profile Velocity rim, i.e., perhaps a 25mm Fusion or 22mm Aero vs. the 30mm Deep-V "if you ride in high winds much". The point was, you must also factor in the size of the tires, number and types of spokes used on a wheel before you can establish what the wind side loading might be. Therefore, a tandem running on a Sun Rhyno Lite with 48 spokes and 32mm touring tires would have more surface area and experience more side loading than a tandem using Deep-Vs with 36 spokes and 23mm racing tires. However, even then, the differences aren't dramatic compared to discs, tri-spokes, or very deep section aero rims. As for tandem teams that have been blown into other lanes, etc... assuming they weren't using tri-spokes, discs, or very deep section rims the root cause wasn't the wheels catching the wind, it was the wind-loading on the riders.

    2)Shouldn't wheels with a minimal spoke cross section be easier in a cross wind?

    That depends on your definition of "easier". That notional 48 spoke wheel might have a higher side loading and be experiencing more of a push effect from a crosswind; however, it probably exhibits less buffeting or "pulsing" than a Shimano Santana Sweet 16 or Rolf Prima Vigor (and perhaps your Bontragers: new data from new thread) since the loading is distributed on 48 small and round spokes vs. 16, 20 or 24 flat bladed spokes that are paired together in 8, 10 or 12 places around the rim.

    The latter may be the real issue you're trying to address -- the effect of crosswinds on bladed and/or paired low-spoke count wheels -- not simply the differences between a semi-box section 22mm deep rim and a 30mm deep rim with conventional and round spokes. In that vane, then yes... I have found the Rolf's to be 'twitchier' in a crosswind than our other 30mm deep wheels with more conventional, non-paired and higher count spoke networks, e.g., 36h Deep-Vs, 36h Fusion and our 24h Topolino AX3.0-Ts (which probably have as much spoke surface area with respect to crosswind loading as a pair of 40h wheels). Moreover, I would expect a 32h wheel built up with Sapim CX-Ray bladed spokes to be a real handful compared to the same wheel built up with regular single or double butted spokes all other things being equal.

    Again, and back to my original recommendation to the OP, I continue to maintain that if someone can only have one set of wheels for an all-around tandem that will see lots of use in a variety of conditions for many years to come, a set of conventional wheels remains my pick as the best choice someone can make. Racing or other high-zoot wheels are great, but it's best to pick and choose when to use them to ensure you get the biggest bang for your buck over the longest period of time. Now, if you buy a new tandem every couple years or don't put a lot of miles on your tandem then it probably doesn't matter which type of wheels you choose.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 11-15-08 at 08:26 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    But, to do that you need to have a DT tension meter, at least based on what the folks at Rolf told me when I was trying to get them to confirm if my Park OR my Wheelsmith tension meter readings on the '08 wheels were within spec. Their response was, only the DT model is accurate enough to use on their wheels as there's just too much variability in the Park Tools and Wheelsmith instruments at the higher tension levels.

    More information in this thread from May '08: Truing Rolf Prima wheels

    Moreover, if your wheels are still under warranty and you or anyone else works on them who is not an authorized by Rolf you run the risk of voiding your warranty.
    Considering i've had spokes just come loose for no reason after having Rolf tension them with their DT gauge that apparently no one in the world owns but them - I don't buy their story. If you are simply spot truing - it's not going to make that big a difference if you check tension and get close. That being said - i've not had to true any of my wheels after having Rolf retension them a third time
    Administrator and Contributing Editor - Vortex Media Group

  18. #18
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
    ... after having Rolf tension them with their DT gauge that apparently no one in the world owns but them - I don't buy their story.
    Yeah, it was a pretty arrogant and absurd stance but that's what they said and wrote.

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