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Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc Fork for tandem...?

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Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc Fork for tandem...?

Old 12-03-04, 11:02 PM
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Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc Fork for tandem...?

I'm in the process of building up a new road tandem and while the stock frameset comes with a tandem-specific carbon fork with canti mounts, I'm contemplating using Winwood's cyclocross disc fork. In doing research over the last couple of weeks on dozens of bike sites and in the local shops, it seems there is a void in absolute "yes / no" knowledge on this topic. Since it was only $15 more for a disc front hub instead of a standard, I went with the disc hub in hopes that either now or soon in the future, a strong enough fork will be available (Hugi 145mm disc hubs, DT Alpine spokes, 40h Mavic A719 rims, Avid 203mm rotor on the rear).

Cannondale uses a dual disc setup, but with their oversized aluminum Fatty fork. No other tandem I found from the large builders allows a front disc. I certainly understand the physics involved with the amount of torque the disc puts on the rest of the fork. See the link below for an ugly depiction of what can go wrong.

Tandem disc fork failure

So, any thoughts or has anyone else had success (or failure, hopefully safely) using this fork? Worse case, I have an older headset cable hanger and will drop my classic Onza H.O. canti's on the front.

Much thanks!
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Old 12-04-04, 12:49 PM
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I've been using Winwood's cyclocross fork on our on our Trek T2000 with no problems with a total team weight of around 300lbs. Friends of ours have been using the Winwood fork on a Santana for around a year also with out problems.
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Old 12-04-04, 01:30 PM
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Bob Davis at ariZonatandems.com has custom built c/f forks for discs on tandems. Rode his prototype over a year ago with discs front and rear on an all carbon fiber tandem. Worked great! Check out his website.
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Old 12-04-04, 03:52 PM
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Hey Lost Coyote - what rotor size are you using? I've heard that some forks take only the 160mm (185 and 203 are too big for the slant of the fork and also the larger the disc diameter, the more torque on the left leg). If you saw that link I posted, it gives me the "shakes". I've snapped a h-bar on a road bike once and went flying at 20 mph - I don't mind getting a bit banged up, but as for my wife, she'd kill me!!

It's actually the Nashbar cyclo fork, but made by Winwood. $169 - what a deal!
Nashbar cyclo fork link

Thanks zonatandem - I'll check that site out as well. BTW, I dig the CF ride you have (saw it in a prevous thread). I wanted a Calfee originally, but settled for the Ti-boom at Chucks. Something rather unique and since we don't race, it'll be enough for us.
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Old 12-04-04, 04:56 PM
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We are both using the 160mm and have been happy so far. I've not looked into up sizing so I couldn't tell you if there is clearance or not. Yes, the Nashbar one looks like the same fork.

Re. the crash, I remember seeing that site before. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the fork failure occur due to a quick release popping open? Looked like the guy crashed a nice Calfee too didn't it? As Mark has stated before, disc set ups aren't for everyone, but then again, neither is flying down a hill at 45mph plus on a tendem!
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Old 12-04-04, 05:16 PM
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Cool - I'll probably build it initially with the Onza canti's and see how she handles before picking up a Avid 160 in front. We have only 2-5 really good sized hills around here (depending on route) that we've used the Arai drag on our MTB tandem (southeast Wisconsin, hey, kinda flat). Being a team of 330 lbs. filled with cheese, beer and sausage, I don't see a major need for the discs aside the fact that since I was building from the ground up, the "cool" factor came into play. Plus, we've burned through a few sets of pads on the MTB, so I figured to give discs a shot.

The whole "drag" concept is great IF you have the right setup to drag. If you don't, people need to realize you can't "drag" on canti's, V-brakes, or discs. It's the same principal as downshifting in mountains to drag your car under control. A good hard brake for 5 seconds and coast will keep you under much better control anyway. I've seen plastic hub caps melted to rims of cars for the same issue - it is wicked funny!!!!!

If I do go disc in front, I'll be getting bolt-on skewers. I recall years ago a friend of mine ripping a front wheel out on a MTB ride in the Kettle Moraine forest here before it was widely known. Thus, I'm all too familiar with the issue on QR skewers.

I noticed the Calfee print as well, having a Tetra of my own. In fact, I just posted my road rides on the "road bike" thread - check 'em out if you like.
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Old 12-05-04, 11:52 AM
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Calfee builds a great c/f tandem; ariZona tandems is a one-man operation (so far) and his work is equal to Craig's; however, he does as yet not have the name recognition of Calfee + the ariZona frameset costs $1,000 le$$.
Have ridden both Calfee and several ariZona tandems. Impressed enough with Bob Davis that I just took delivery of one of his custom singles.
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Old 12-05-04, 09:13 PM
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A couple of comments....

While not a carbon fork, Steve Rex in Sacramento (www.rexcycles.com) has built a number of steel forks for Glenn Erickson's dual-disc road tandems that are about the same weight as most regular steel forks but that incorporate a right fork leg-mounted disc caliper and an unique, extra-wide crown design that allows the forks to accommodate a 203mm rotor. The crown also incorporates a caliper brake bolt hole in the even that there is ever a need or desire to run rim brakes instead of the disc, e.g., field-repair while touring, etc...

Dennis Bushnell is also building a tandem fork that can accommodate a 203mm disc rotor with right & forward mounted caliper. Rather than the somewhat artistic looking Erickson design, Dennis' forks are reminiscent of Cannodale's Fatty with with an extra-wide crown.

On rims, the only thing that you might want to consider is the use of an off-set rim from Ritchey "Trekking OCR" for your front wheel. The OCR rims use steeper spoke angles but eliminate most of the dishing that a normal rim would require when used with a disc hub. You're limited to 32h, but given your team weight of 330lbs a 480g 32h front rim is more than adequate. Velocity also makes an off-set rim -- the Aerohead OC -- which comes in a 36h version; however, at 400g it's not nearly as robust as the 32h Ritchey and it's also a bit more narrow (20mm vs 23mm).

As for James & Jules front disc mishap on their Custom 26" Calfee Tetra Tetra Enduro, the root cause is believed to be the orientation of the opening in the drop-outs. The skewer coming loose was believed to be a by-product of the braking forces working against the axle which -- if James' models are correct -- was only held in place in the front fork by the skewer instead of having the braking forces from the crown-mounted brakes pushing the axle into the closed end of the drop-out. Thus, a bolt-on axle may or may not be any more effective than a stout steel skewer applied (perhaps a locking skewer) with sufficient pressure in the event nothing else is done to beef-up the drop-outs, e.g., changing their orientation or the caliper mounting ala Erickson's design.

Back to the basic issue of front discs brakes on road tandems, IMHO they are still in Beta test-mode. Anyone using front discs needs to recognize that there is very little long-term field data available on fatique life for forks and wheels being used with the Avid or any other type of disc brake caliper. While there is a wealth of information available from the field on off-road tandem use of disc brakes, that information is not directly transferrable to the road tandem applications as the method of use and conditions are vastly different in terms of the physical demands placed on the equipment. Thus, I still maintain that discs are not for everyone and, more importantly, anyone using them should be very attentive to preventative maintenance and inspection of their brake calipers, rotors, pads, hubs, wheels, and forks. Be mindful to look for stress cracks and to follow-up on any unusual noises that you hear when using your brakes. A loose brake rotor attachment bolt can wreak havoc on your calipers as can a cracked rotor. Stress cracks around spoke holes in a hub or rim usually appear well in advance of any actual flange failures or spoke pull-throughs -- noting that these types of failures happen on tandems that don't have front discs.

Finally, with regard to Avid's "tandem-approved" brakes. Bear in mind that the approval and warranty coverage is limited to their use as primary brakes (not drag brake use) and with the 203mm (8") rotors (which is what comes on the C'dale tandems) not the 160mm rotors. The preclusoin of drag brake use is why Co-Motion will not sell its road tandems with enough brake cable fittings to allow the simultaneous operation of the disc and rim brakes.

Bottom Line: Disc brakes are not for everyone! Please do your homework and make an honest assessment of your brake equipment needs / expectations before making a 100% commitment to disc brakes. Even then, strongly consider making sure you can retrofit rim brakes (caliper or cantilever) to your tandem in addition to the disc brakes because needs change.
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Old 12-05-04, 11:43 PM
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Mark - thanks. I will be using a dual brake lever setup (canti's and discs) for the first few voyages to see how they both respond. 203 in back and 160 in front, Onza H.O. cantis (STI levers, and I hate travel agents, so no V's). The hubs were literally only $30 more for the disc flange, so the cost was nothing. As for the discs, cost is not an issue there either (simplicity choosing mechanical vs. hydro). They will be laced 3x 40h to Mavic 719 rims, so strength is not an issue either (was contemplating 4x, but that would be too much). I have a set of bolt on skewers and the front will defintely have that, rear is a 145 Salsa stainless.

As for people dragging on them, they didn't listen in high school physics class during the "friction" chapter. These are the same people dragging their cars brakes and melting hub caps going down a mountain. Sadly, I see more of them come into the bike shop than us.

While I took the road path in life, most of friends are expert and pro MTB racers. I'm quite familiar with the propeties behind what they can do to a fork, skewer, and overall ride control since many of my friends were the BETA's a few years ago (Trek's HQ is not far away, so they have most of the latest gear and prototype goods to ride with, discs included).

Being a bonded carbon leg to an aluminum crown, that is where I tend to lose a little confidence. I've witnessed an old Specialized Epic frame snap at the lugs - glue gets old and brittle. How long before the Winwood does the same......?

What we need - 20mm through axle, aluminum fork skeleton (bit smaller than a C-Dale Fatty) with a full carbon overlay, and dual (R & L) 160mm disc tabs with a split cable for even pull (like old cantis, but at a fixed junction - use an old headset cable hanger?). The torque would be split between both legs and the axle / skeleton would be a good reinforcement.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:56 PM
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Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc Fork for tandem...?

It looks like Winwood now has tested the fork and approves of its use on tandems. Go to the link provided for details https://www.winwoodbike.com/muddydisc.html
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Old 05-20-07, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Panito123
It looks like Winwood now has tested the fork and approves of its use on tandems. Go to the link provided for details https://www.winwoodbike.com/muddydisc.html

Takem from the Winwwod bike website
Muddy Disc Cross

Designed and tested for tandem use with 6" disc rotor
Cantilever brake bosses, aluminum crown and steerer
ISO disc tabs and removable cantilever bosses
Fits up to 700 x 44mm knobby tires with fenders
Rake: 45mm
Total fork length (top of crown to center of axle) =398mm
Sizes available: 1-1/8" threadless (682g)
Steerer length: 300mm
MSRP= $315.00


I have a mountain Tandem that is fitted with Hope Mono M4 discs and 200 mm rotors. This brake system works. Although I may be tempted to go down to a 180mm rear disc- There is no way I would fit 6" discs on the thing. Even with one of the best Tandem Disc brake units around- I do not think that a 6" rotor will be able to stop our tandem at full chat- let alone a Road bike that will be able to travel a lot faster. And as to the quick release axle with disc brakes- I tried it for a couple of weeks when I converted to discs- and for peace of mind- if not for safety- I changed to a bolt through axle. The angles that fork was going through with the strain of the disc brakes had me worried that the QR would break or come loose, if the rotor did not pull the qr out of the forks.

Admitedly this is an offroad tandem that takes a lot of strain with the terrain but CF forks- 6" disc- and no bolt through axle would make me think seriously about my safety. Even on the road.
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Old 01-24-09, 03:32 PM
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sorry to revive an old thread, but i'm just wondering how the Winwood Muddy Cross forks are holding up? i believe the oldest one mentioned in this thread by Lost Coyote was in service since 2003, right? any updates?
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