Realy, how fast.
 

Out of curiosity, when riding without a group, not training hard or racing, what speeds do you folks ride and maintain for say 20 miles with no stops.

Granted it's not always flat terrain, so this can have an effect.

Just looking for insight from other teams.

PK

Again, on average and riding junk mileage tempo by ourselves with no one to draft and no rabbits to chase....

Flat's about 19-20
Rolling about 17-18
Hilly about 16 - 17 assuming a loop ride
Mountains 13- 15 depending on steepness and assuming it's a loop ride

Amended:
HC Mountains 9 - 12 where HC = Hors Category or 'Son of a _itch", thigh busting, lung burning double digit % grades or X miles @ 8% @ 5 mph climbs

Thanks TG, this gives me a good basis to see where we fall and help me work with the wife on issues of her allergies and asthma, or fitness.

Our flats are pretty steady 19 - 20
Rolling terrain is tough as it's really flat where we live.
Hills, this will give her issues, as big efforts lately have been tough for her breathing
Mountains are why I asked, if we need to do Tahoe in June, I need to keep her upbeat while getting some more high aerobic and anaerobic efforts under her belt.

I'm starting to doubt myself about our decisions for her allergies and asthma vs loss of fitness.

We did an event on Valentines day, 35 or 50 miles off road, our choice. We took the mountain tandem. All was real good, smooth and acceptably quick until several miles after the first sag about 16 miles in, then as if a switch were flipped, she was done and nothing (resting or allergy stuff including a puffer) could get our pace or her energy back. Maybe the dust, or possibly to much road and not enough off road. We did finish the 35 but it was crawling out the last 15 miles. Basically survival mode to finish. Thing is this should have been a fairly easy ride with 50 a definite possibility. She told me she was up for it and felt good when we started. I don't demand much so our pace was good. Oh well.

Any thoughts or suggestions I'm open.

Thanks Folks.

PK

So you have ruled out that she bonked due to not enough food and drink?

We have found for long 100 mile bike rides in which we are riding for a good placing or time we need to eat every half hour from the start of the race or we will bonk. It has also taken us a while to find the correct combo of food and drink for us. Some products work and some don't. Its different for everyone.

Flat's about 20+
Rolling about 17-20
Long Hills about 12 - 15. Crawl around 10 at the top. Thats always fun!

From an earlier post your wife made about the Tahoe ride fundraiser, she mentioned that training would start with a 15 mile ride at the beginning of February. If she started from that level two weeks ago, then going twice that far in two weeks time could be too much too soon. Are you riding several times a week or weekends only? It could be just the lack of aerobic conditioning. I think that could have been enough by itself but adding allergies and asthma to the mix may have just been too much.

If the longer distance riding is as new for her as the other post made it sound, I would definitely get in touch with the doctor treating her allergies and asthma and let them know that she is wanting to do some serious exercise. The exertion and hard breathing can certainly bring on exercised-induced asthma if she suffers from that. I believe that will call for a more regimented preventive maintenance program instead of using the crisis puffer after the asthma hits.

As your conditioning continues, if you have access to a spin class where the instructor leads you up some simulated climbs (higher tension, lower cadence and probably harder breathing) it may give you all a a preview of what you're in for.

I would make sure you have a gear that Floridians think is ridiculously low for your Tahoe trip.

Bloomington, IN

Download a program called Bikemaster 3.0 it will give distance and elevation information for many rides in Northern California including the Lake Tahoe ride. You will most likely be doing the 97.3 mile Tahoe roundabout. Select that ride after it opens click end, it will show you route and elevation information. In the bottom right hand corner take a look at predictions it will give you some ideas of ride times. The ride times can be adjusted by using the sliders for pace and riding factor. If you can find or piece together some routes that are similar to something you already have data on I think you will find the predictions to be pretty accurate.

Man, you guys are cooking. My wife & I road 50 miles today & averaged 16.5 mph. This was on the Silver Comet Trail That is for the most part flat. It doe's have plenty of road crossings that require a complete stop. On some stretches we maintained 22-23 mph.

This is a question without a meaningful answer. It so much depends on circumstances, and terrain.

And unless its a race the answer is without meaning.

Short answer for us is faster than some, slower than others.

We'll shoot to do the state TT championship this year sub 58 minutes. Extrapolating from that, the answer would be 25-26 mph for 20 miles.

However if you look at a typical endurance miles ride, our average for a 20 mile ride might vary from 17-23 mph.

And if it was a ride on very hilly terrain, we might torch ourselves to average 14mph.

You really can't compare across different terrain, different wind conditions, and diferent motivations.

Thus if you want to know where you stack up, enter a race. If you don't care to race don't worry about it.

The Silver Comet is actually very deceiving. In addition to those numerous stops that you run into closer in towards Atlanta, there's a slight downward grade to it as you move west towards Rockmart and Alabama. I want to say that when we rode from the Rockmart end to the Silver Comet Depot and back there was something like 1,000' of net gain... but it all came at you in very long, gradual elevation changes as is the norm for rails-to-trail conversions. Frankly, I'd rather climb Kennesaw Mtn. (800' in 1.2 miles) vs. 900' over 30 miles.

... and this is why we will not ever begin to ride competitively and are thankful that we never did.

I lost all interest in recreational skiing, sailing and motorcycles once I turned to competition and once competition was logistically impractical, I simply stopped skiing, sailing and riding motorcycles. I only returned to motorcycles after a 9-year hiatus for commuting with the exception of three 'recreational' rides into the regional Mountains: twice with my wife in conjunction with the Tour de Georgia and once to Deal's Gap because, well, it was on my Bucket List. I've only ever felt the urge to sneak back onto a track with a motorcycle twice in the 10 years to drag my knees through a few corners since getting back onto motorcycles 'just to get it out of my system'. But aside from that, again, all of the riding urges beyond basic transportation are gone. Moreover, the latter probably has as much to do with my intense interest in the engineering, design and artistic nature of motorcycles than anything else.

However, tandeming remains a purely recreational activity and it's rather easy to know what your average speeds are... you simply look at your computer and make a mental note of your speeds after riding familiar loop rides over many, many years. As to why this is one of the most-often asked questions among recreational cyclists, who knows... Probably just another one of hundreds of ways that humans always seem to find to measure themselves against others. Less I digress, since we don't train the only changes we see are the typical loss of fitness that comes with reduced riding during the winter months as we put a few extra pounds on our bodies and, of course, a slight decrease in performance year-over-year as we get a bit older. It's a personal choice but, thankfully, we are still able to enjoy riding without any other purpose than spending time together, spending time with friends and perhaps getting a little exercise in the process.

Every now and again there is a temptation to resume 'training' and riding with the racer boys as I did before introducing Debbie to tandems many, many years ago but, well, where's the fun in that? That's the path I was on before introducing Debbie to tandems so that we could spend time together because, as it was, every spare minute that I had was spent off cycling and training while she sold real estate: we hardly saw each other except when passing in the morning and evening. The tandem reintroduced us to each other and gave us the treasure of many, many new friends and a common social life that was truly ours, not his or hers. Sure, we'll still do our best to keep up with the faster teams but, at the same time, we recognize our limitations and often times simply opt to drop off the back and enjoy the ride.

Just my .02. Kudo and props to those of you who find enjoyment in training and competition and in particular to those who can also throttle back and smell the roses. I'm just not wired that way.

Guys I didn't ask based on wanting to go faster or race. I have many parallels to Tandem geek about my motorcycle and bicycle adventures of the past. For me now it's rides about my wife and I enjoying time together, whether on what is now the preferred method of tandeming or single bikes.

I asked to get an idea of some sort, and I realize the multitude of variables.
These few posts have been a huge help.

Something is not quite right and I'm kind of asking not only for ideas but also based on the fact that we have never yet ridden with other tandems, so gauging performance is tough.

In the end I appreciate all replies. It's good to have others ideas and opinions, it can make you think about other things.

PK

She does pretty good with eating before a ride, especially a longer specialty type ride. Her breakfast was good, she snacked at sags, and she hydrated starting the day before. Rest can always be better but wasn't to bad for a road trip. Anything is possible, won't rule it out.

PK

Cycling the Dragon!
 

Yeah! I'd put this ride on my Bucket List also! I rode the Dragon last summer on my bicycle while visiting friends in Knoxville. When I stopped at Deal's, you should have seen the reaction I received from all the motorbike guys & gals; they couldn't believe I'd rode the Dragon on my bike. I found out about the Dragon from a local bike shop wrench while I was getting my bike repaired (another set of wheels bit the dust). Great ride, that I plan to do again the next time I'm back in Knoxville; so long as it's not a weekend. I don't think I'd want to try riding this rode on a summer weekend due to all the bike & car traffic.

A lot of good information.

Some is already in place but I didn't detail it before.
As a rider she does pretty well overall, this is why I'm concerned.
When she mentions the 15 mile training and stuff, I remind her that this is 15 miles on road. Her personality is one that still thinks 15 miles of easy pace on road is the same as 15 of off road cycling with about a two hour ride through soft terrain in heat and humidity.

In an effort to lessen her time in the woods, and around plants and allergy things, I convinced her we should get the road tandem. Other than some fitting issues she took to it very well. Prior to us even thinking about the Team In Training ride in Tahoe. We were doing 20 to 25 mile road rides, with as much climbing as our area allows. These 15, then 20, now 25 mile group rides at 15-17 mph she is fine on. The new bike and more saddle time are helping with her seated comfort.

Training during the week needs to be improved, she has done one spin class recently, but has done some a while back.

In regards to the medical or doctor stuff, we are very fortunate. Her allergy doctor is also a pilot, and I have been maintaining his aircraft squadron for about twenty years. He also cycles, and understands most of what we do. He has her taking not only the puffer but Advair. Our daughter also previously worked / ran one of his offices, so she is constantly reminding or advising her mom also. You would think I'd fully accept this as all good, but sometimes I wonder if this is the root to some of this.

Gearing wise, yes I have a wide ratio 4WD low type cassette for when needed, currently I have a more Florida based closer ratio cassette to minimize gaps. Consider too we have a triple front chainring set.

Your mention of aerobic fitness is my main thought also. As I think back, prior to the road tandem, all we did was off road. I'm wondering if my idea of less time in the woods, to minimize allergy issues, also, removed her from short burst aerobic type exercise. The ride Saturday went good, until we rode some technical stuff, including a couple of short abrupt climbs. While these would have normally been easy, I wonder if had we continued more off road riding, possibly the more steady road pace took away her previous ability to ramp up and ramp down.

Thanks for some added insight.

PK

Will check it out, thanks for the information.

PK

If you are smiling and having fun, it's all good to me.

PK

I agree, and don't plan to use this as a training aid. If we do race this tandem, you are correct, we'll know where we stand on that day. No races are planned, we may run a local tt just for amusement and something different. Last we need to do is start seriously racing again.

I'm trying to save my left knee, cause when the rear starts to quit and the front must pull it through, that knee starts a knockin. I can see the insurance paperwork... cause of knee injury...my wife gave up and I had to do all the work

PK

Some of you may find this funny. At the half way point in the 50 mile ride we stopped for lunch that my wife had in her backpack. Among the normal food: chicken salad sandwiches, humus & other stuff, She was packing a bottle of Champaign! Needless to say we saved that for after the ride.

We are probably a pretty typical tandem team with a fast but aging captain and a not-so-strong but willing stoker, except that our combined age is 130, so our speeds are a little slow. We can average 19-20 on rolling terrain, but this really sacrifices the stoker's enjoyment. We do a lot of 14-15 rides when we are by ourselves and tend to push more when we are with others, say 17-18. We really suck at climbing, so there are just some mountain rides that I do solo that are beyond our capability. I would love to do the Hilly Hundred in Indiana on the tandem, but after riding with a pretty strong couple (me solo) and watching them struggle, I don't think it would be enjoyable (which is really the point these days).

I tend to agree with Merlinextralight in that there is a very wide range of capabilities and comparison has little value except in a competitive environment. Not everyone is built to be a powerhouse. Now of course there can be medical issues that complicate things, but if you can get out and ride the distances you want, you're reaching your goal. If one of the team is weaker it just means you need to use lower gears...

In the high prairie north of Denver there are really no flat areas. Also, we rarely ride only 20 miles - a "standard" ride is more like 40. We almost always ride by ourselves. So, the rides range from rolling hills to canyon climbs & descents. Team age - about 103.

A descent average is about 18mph for about 40 "hilly" miles. A similar distance with more climbing is more like 16.5 mph avg.

PK,



When your wife was "poked" in your recent ride, what were the symptoms she was experiencing?



Reason I ask is I am a mild asthmatic and also suffer from hayfever. In 5 years of cycling, I have only even had a major asthma problem once (due to a very cold century ride) and am able to manage my hayfever with antihistamines most of the time (although the 12hr tabs tend to only last 6 hrs for me).



Although sustained effort (HR over 170) can make my breathing go through the roof, it never really "kills me" until my HR goes above 190. However lactic acid buildup is a killer.



Typically over 2.5 hrs, if I don't get some energy in (gels/bars etc.) I will bonk.



So from the above I tend to suffer from



1. difficulty breathing - asthma (grab the ventolin)

2. Blocked nose - Hayfever

3. Legs screaming (especially if working hard up a hill) - lactic acid

4. Cramp - not enough salt

5. "Bonking" - poor energy intake



From your description it sounds like your wife bonked, even though it was only 15 miles in to the ride. Once you hit the wall, it can take quite a bit to recover. I did a century ride once and under-estimated my nutrition requirements and bonked at 70 miles, took me nearly 10 miles later before the food and drink I ate after bonking kicked in. during that time, we struggled along at around 8-10 miles/hr



My suggestion is early in the ride to use lower gears (especially if it is hilly). Don't worry about everyone else taking off. Being a 400+ lb team, a number of rides where we have been left for dust at the start, but once we get rolling (usually after 15 miles) we start clawing our way back.



As for speed over 20 miles



Flat - 20+ mph

Rolling - 16-20 mph

hilly/climbing - 6+ mph (and yeah I hate those long gentle climbs too - have a ride where we climb 1000ft over 20 miles and can't get over 12 mph ave even though the road looks dead flat)

That is one of the things i have had to get used to riding the tandem with my wife. We are slower on hills than I am on my single. Any uphill grade can be tuff.
The fast down hills make up for it.

18-20 Flats
16-18 Rolling
8-10 longer climbs
40+ long descents

Each post is more help and it's appreciated.


It could have been lack of nutrition, but she knew the ride and ate well, plus drank a lot of water starting the day before. She also had some stuff at the first sag.

During the ride she was drinking cytomax. While not perfect for lactic acid it does help.

As for her breathing, riding the tandem it can be more obvious if she's having a difficult time. This did become a concern, I could hear it, feel it in the pedals and knew something was off. By then it was possibly to late on this ride.

Her fitness is not bad, but she has not been doing any short bursts of power or interval type training.

Starting slow and building, pretty typical for how I force her to ride, as for effort and cadence overall easy to moderate loads, except the few short climbs. I also have us deliberately start at the back, letting others have a huge lead so the dust won't be as much of a concern. The event was not a race, but just an epic type ride event.

Based on the replies, that gave an idea of speed on flats while riding and not racing, we fell right into the mix, which is good. In other words, when we keep her from going to high on heart rate, we tend to be similar to others.

As much as I wanted to avoid going back to heart rate monitors, I'm pretty convinced to have her ride with a monitor while I watch and listen. This will let me have an idea of what's going on.

Piecing it together, I suspect several things. Fitness, dusty ride, and her having a goal and wanting it too much to know her real limit. Allergies and or asthma, plus a touch of lactic acid can all be related and no doubt contributed. I also blame myself for not getting us out for more intense training plus listening to her as we rode telling me she was fine, when I should have heard her enthusiasm and kept on with a slow and steady type attitude.

I wouldn't trade her for the world, I hope it's something you folks never have to contend with.

Thanks for all the help, believe it or not, it did help me see a bigger picture and now have a plan.

PK