bobthib

So the other day I was loading the tandem into the van and somehow knocked the timing chain off. It had never happened before and I didn't pay any attention to the pedal phasing when I put the chain back on.

Tonight we went out for out first real hard ride since my wife broke her foot in July. She was a bit out of shape, so I figured I was in for a major workout trying to keep up.

We barely started when she said "somethings wrong with the pedals!" That's when I noticed that we were about 90 OOP. The ride has started so it was too late to worry about it. And I had loosened the rear brake as it was dragging a bit and now I had no rear break power, so correcting that was my 1st priority.

Much to my surprise, I really felt her power unlike I never had before. We were a bit wobbly when sprinting, but other than that, it felt really good. After a few miles we even got used to that new wobbliness, and got over it.

We finished the 20 mi ride at the front of the pack, and both felt great. I was expecting to have to do double duty, but such was not the case.

Could it be the 90 deg OOP?

swc7916

It must be great, - 90 degrees in January! It's 33 here with 4 inches of snow on the ground. No riding for a while.

gitarzan

Actually I'd think 45° would be more efficient.

bobthib

Well, actually....

It's better than that. 90 deg has to do with the phase of the padal. The temp was only 68 deg. Almost heaven. Oh, sorry. I used to live in Chic, Toronto, and NY. I should be more sensitive at this time of year.


NOT!

bobthib

Since it was an accident to begin with, I think I'll wait for Zona or T'geek to weigh in on the subject...

Dean V

We tried 90 deg oop before and have not noticed any improvement in performance (speed). The bike certainly feels different but it was neither faster or slower for us.

Chris_W

Climbing hills feels way better to us when 90 degrees OOP - we're not planning to go back to IP.

bobthib

I certainly noticed that, but there are not many hills here. But even on riding on the level, I can really tell the difference.

woodrow5

Wrong answer. No points for this one DD!

WebsterBikeMan

OOP definitely changes the experience. Some folks have never tried it (most tandems are initially set up in phase). Some have tried it and prefer in-phase. We gave in-phase a good part of a year (so we would really know what that was like) before trying OOP. Stoker found it increased her sense of contributing. I did not find it an improvement, and it took a bit of getting used to. But "keep the stoker happy" is reason enough, so we're riding OOP.

WNY tandem

How OOP are you running?

WebsterBikeMan

90 degrees, captain leading. Although one tooth or two either way I don't sweat.

bobthib

I guess that only makes sense when both riders are right or left "footed." Since I am left "footed" and my stoker is right, I guess being 90 deg delayed (on the right side cranks) would yield the same effect.

Anyone care to chime in on this?

WebsterBikeMan

Well, I haven't quite figured that one out. After a few months of 90 degrees captain leading, something happened to cause the timing chain to come off (don't recall what). Put it back on, 90 degrees OOP, without thinking too hard, and got it stoker leading. We almost couldn't ride! If it works for you, go for it.

Dean V

My main dislike of OOP was that I didn't like the feel of the bike. Hill climbing in bigger gears the bike sways slightly from side to side on a single or IP tandem. With OOP it seems more like it is locked in the vertical plane which I didn't like. Out of the saddle climbing and sprinting was unfavourable as well. I guess I just prefer the tandem to feel as much like a single bike as possible and OOP certainly moves it away from that.

Tom Spohn

The real answer here is for the team to try it both ways and stick with the way that works best for them. We have tried it both ways and are now riding IP on our Cannondale. Our very first bike was an old Peugeot tandem that was considerably less stiff than the 'Dale. On that bike OOP seemed to reduce the noodlyness (That is a word--right?) of the bike. Downside was starting and stopping and we could not stand for short rollers. On our stiff 'Dale the IP works great. Only way to know is to try it out.

DASTandem

I guess it all depends upon what you are used to. We've ridden 90 OOP since 1996 and find it to be very smooth. Not knowing any better, we can also ride uphill with both of us out of the saddle (the more I read I find this is considered rare but I believe it is because we are a lightweight team - 260 - on a very stiff CDale frame). We were up at Larry Black's at Mt Airy testing tandems and I found out that trying to ride with both of us out-of-saddle was way too squirrelly for our taste -- we didn't like the power "surges" with every downstroke. I also think that both captain and stoker end up getting good workouts when OOP -- as it seems IP sometimes allows the stoker to coast in the "shadow" of the captain's output...but that is purely conjecture. Again, it's whatever you feel the most comfortable with.

waynesulak

There are a lot of teams that are technically OOP but only by one or two teeth. This often is used to give the stoker more resistance feel from the pedals without substantially hurting out of the saddle performance.

We did that in the past but now are in phase with shorter stoker crank arms. Proportional crank lengths allow the stoker to keep up with the captain's cadence.

bobthib

Since we don't ever do this, and living in FLAT FLA, there is really not much need or chance to get out of the saddle. I do on my solo, but my stoker never does. Nor does she ever sprint.

My other stoker is my 8 y/o grandson. He gets out of the saddle now and again, but a 55 lbs its not a big deal.

What I really like about OOP is that I can feel the stoker's input, and conversely they can feel that they are contributing. Since they are both "noobs" of sorts, it works all around.

zonatandem

As some of you may know, we are avid 90 degree OOPers.
Have ridden OOP for 230,000+ miles. Either we must like it . . . or . . . we don't know any better!
Seriously, if you have not attempted it, give OOP a try for a few hundred miles.
It may surprise you!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

riding_blind

Lol it's funny you said that. The first time we tried 90 degrees OOP, Captain leading, our ride was much quicker and smoother. We got home and her first words were, "Wow! My legs hurt!" Because I am blind she is the captain. I told her often that it felt like I wass pulling her legs around. That night we learned I was right. We have since tried IP, hate it, and are avid OOPers.

mtnbke

We are going to 90 degrees out of phase this spring. I've been complaining to my wife that she doesn't contribute on the tandem but is strong on her single. She says that she feels like I drop the pedals out from under her feet. We are also switching her from 170mm cranks to 175mm cranks, even though she is five foot nothin'. She says she has long legs, though I don't know how. I use 200mm captain's cranks and generate a fair bit of power, and with a lower cadence to boot. I can believe her when she says that she isn't able to contribute as I'm dominating the "push."

It was her idea to go out of phase, and I'd be astounded if it didn't make a HUGE difference when we finally do it. Waiting for the youngest to be old enough to trailer (One year old this weekend).

diabloridr

As an alternative, consider going only a link or two OOP, as this can often correct just the issue you describe while not making it complicated to stand or sprint, if that is important.

I'd be cautious about going to longer cranks for your stoker. Mine is also 5 foot tall with a long inseam for her height. She runs 165mm cranks on her singles and when we bought the tandem I thought standard 170mm cranks might be OK.

Wrong - knee issue became apparent quickly.

Now she runs 165 cranks everywhere.

OTOH, to be honest I think we do a bit more with our tandem than you do (climb mountain roads in the Sierra, ride fast centuries, etc), so crank length may be less important for you.

Good luck.

zonatandem

Stoker Kay is 4' 10 3/4 'tall' and has ridden 170mm cranks since 1975 on all of our tandems.
Pilot at 5'7" also rides 170s.

Dean V

I am 5'11" with a 34 1/2" inseam and prefer 170mm cranks over 175mm. I like 165s as well.