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  1. #1
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    Nicest tandem at interbike?

    In the recent thread about tandems at interbike one seems to be missing - couldn't imagine how google missed it as I've seen a few pics on a site devoted to extremely light bicycles. A detail pic is also shown in the power thread here.

    Its owner obviously has excellent taste as it's a carbon Calfee with Lightning cranks, Edge wheels, bars, stem etc. and an 11-speed Campag groupset. Yummy.

  2. #2
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Might you be referring to this Calfee?




    Yeah, and thanks mrfish, that's the Calfee Dragonfly I've been waiting for. I decided to get a tandem early this year (it hit me upon seeing Mrs. Ritterview's displeasure at my weekend departure for a long group ride. Better we should ride together, I figured).

    So, having been a devote of the Weight Weenie forum (where the bike has been discussed), I started looking at tandems from a WW perspective. The first thing I noticed was that the default tandem choices, the FSA cranks, were heavy.

    I emailed to Tim Brummel at Lightning about this, and he agreed to make a prototype Lightning tandem crank that weighs 1.15 lbs. less than the FSA.

    I figured I wanted a carbon frame, for the usual weight and comfort reasons, the choices being Ruegamer and Calfee. The former made very light frames (e.g. Whereswaldo's), but was performing a disappearing act, so Calfee it was.

    I talked to Mike Moore (Calfee sales guy) at Sea Otter. I told him that the coupled dual-disc Tetra they were displaying was heavy, and since they made carbon bikes, and are asked repeatedly about its weight, they should display a light tandem. Since I wanted to build such a tandem anyway, the plan was hatched to build a Dragonfly to that would be displayed at Interbike. Calfee wasn't going to have a booth, but Edge was. Edge features the complete bikes made, as are Calfee's, from its tubing. Edge liked the idea, and since I'm a fan of Edge components anyway, the bike was outfitted where possible with Edge's stuff.

    I started with a rudimentary Excel spreadsheet from Calfee of their usual build, and started making changes in components.

    Calfee finished the frame a couple of months ago, whereupon I learned that Calfee's philosophy is more customer-centric when it comes to making a complete build. The customer does it!

    Since Calfee mainly sells frames, not complete builds (like all the other tandem makers), it was really important that I found expertise in assembling the complete bike. The best thing I did was turn to Fairwheel Bikes, a store in Tuscon that specializes in lightweight bikes. The owner Jason Woznick is incredibly knowledgeable, helpful and professional. He knows what will and won't work, and many were the changes in my build with his involvement. They also do a lot of show bikes, mine was one of many they were making for the show.

    So, I've listed the components below and their weights. It is all better seen on the build spreadsheet, which is a lot easier to peruse, it can be seen at Google docs, and downloaded as a full-function Excel file here.

    The weights are a mixture of the actual weighed items, the best weights available on the Internet (with links), and a few estimates. I still don't know how much the bike weighs, because no one at Interbike thought to weigh it. It is now off to Edge in Utah, and I'll not know the actual weight until it gets back to Calfee in a week or so.

    Spreadsheets usually turn out optimistic, so, it will probably end up heavier (Jason at Fairwheel estimated 23-23.5 lbs) and make this spreadsheet weight look like a boast.

    The prices listed are full retail, and thus the total isn't something you'd want your stoker to contemplate. Don’t ask me what I paid, it wouldn’t be polite. I will say there can be advantages to having the bike you are building slated to be shown at Interbike.

    Please see the build spreadsheet, which is a lot easier to peruse, it can be seen at Google docs, and downloaded as a full-function Excel file here.

    Component................Make.....................Model................................Weight
    Tandem Frame...............Calfee...................Dragonfly..............................2930
    Paint...............................Calfee...................Cabernet Red.......................280
    Fork...............................Edge.....................2.0 Tandem.........................380 (uncut)
    BB Eccentric..................Calfee..................Calfee Eccentric.....................116
    Headset...........................Cane Creek.........AER…….................................45
    Captain Bar....................Edge ....................Road Bar..............................204
    Captain Stem.................Edge....................Stem (120 mm).....................128
    Stoker Bar......................Edge ...................Road Bar..............................199
    Stoker Stem....................Calfee.................Adjustable Stoker................261
    Captain Seatpost.............Edge...................Seat post...........................165
    Stoker Seatpost...............Edge..................Seat post............................165
    Captain Saddle................Specialized........Toupe SL Carbon.....................112
    Stoker Saddle..................Specialized.........Toupe SL Carbon...................112
    Grips/Tape.......................Lizard Skins......DSP (x2) .............................106
    Timing Drive, Belt..........Gates................. Carbon Drive Belt..................105
    Timing Drive, Rings.......Gates..................Timing Rings x2.....................190
    Captain Crank.................Lightning...........Carbon Crank.......................439
    Stoker Triple crank.........Lightning...........Carbon Crank Ti triple.............525
    Chainrings…….............…………TA……….....……Hegoa 53, 39, 30……….......….180
    Chainring bolts…...........………TA………....…….Bolts…………………..............……30
    R/D.................................Campagnolo... ...Super Record 11……... ........193
    F/D.................................Campagnolo... ...2006 Record Triple.............119
    Shifters...........................Campagnolo... ...Super Record 11................338
    Cassette.........................Wheels Mfg… ...Accel 10 spd DA…..........………204
    Chain .........................Campagnolo........Record 11…………................255
    Front Caliper Brake….........ee cycleworks…. eebrake..............................91
    Rear Caliper Brake........ ee cycleworks….. eebrake...............................91
    Cables……………...........…..Nokon/Campy……Alloy Housing........................231
    Tires(2).........................Specialized ........ S-Works Turbo Race............400
    Tubes (2).......................Specialized...... Turbo Ultralite....................100
    Front Hub......................DT Swiss........... 240s Radial.........................109
    Front Spokes..................DT Swiss......... DT Competition...................169
    Rear Hub.......................DT Swiss........... 240S Disc............................276
    Rear Spokes..................DT Swiss.............DT Competition....................169
    QR Skewers (2)..............KCNC................. Ti MTB................................47
    Front Rim.......................Edge..................68 Clincher.........................470
    Rear Rim.......................Edge...................68 Clincher.........................470
    H20 Bottle Cages (x4)...Specialized….....…S-Works Carbon …....................93

    Total Weight........................................................................10.38 kg/ 22.88 lbs

    Add…

    Pedals (2 pair)…………...Look.................Keo Blade……….....................380

    Total weight ..........................................................................10.76 kg / 23.72 lbs

    Add...

    Water bottle cages (x4)...Specialized……S-Works Carbon ….......................92

    Total weight .....................................................................10.85 kg / 23.92 lbs


    The bike has been discussed already at the Weight Weenie forum.

    What pics I could find from random Flickr uploads (the bike wasn't photographed, either).







    Last edited by Ritterview; 09-28-09 at 01:43 AM. Reason: ...the rest of the story.

  3. #3
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    What would be the weight loss from you wallet?

  4. #4
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldacura View Post
    What would be the weight loss from you wallet?
    I knew this question was coming, so I already answered it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    The prices listed [in the build sheet] are full retail, and thus the total isn't something you'd want your stoker to contemplate. Don’t ask me what I paid, it wouldn’t be polite. I will say there can be advantages to having the bike you are building slated to be shown at Interbike.

  5. #5
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    The bike is absolutely beautiful (and light). I take it your trusty aero-conscious stoker rides in the drops full time
    Rick T
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    daVinci Joint Venture

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    My wife and I love the Cabernet Red. We are going with a vertical fade, Red on top to clear carbon on the bottom. Hoping to hit 28 lbs and $7 buying parts on ebay.
    Maybe the Lightning cranks could be a future upgrade, have you had it on the road?
    Are the cranks stiff enough, do they shift well?
    Ifs fun to see what can be done with no regard to budgets.

  7. #7
    Double Secret Probation R900's Avatar
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    Nice, but why not a double instead of the triple for a show bike?
    Time to Ride...

  8. #8
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
    The bike is absolutely beautiful (and light). I take it your trusty aero-conscious stoker rides in the drops full time
    Thanks, and good pick up on the lack of stoker hand rests. Actually, Mrs. Ritterview never gets in the drops, her preferred riding stance is more Almira Gulch than Kristin Armstrong. I used the Edge drop handlebars because it was destined for the Edge booth, they were light, and Edge doesn't make a bullhorn.

    I figured I'd get Cane Creek Ergo Stoker Levers eventually. I hadn't known how much these weigh until now, they are 230 grams, which is more than the handlebar!



    So, I am going to switch out the Edge handlebar for a bullhorn. A bullhorn will be helpful, because spin bikes, with which Mrs. R is quite familiar, are equipped with these. I'd welcome recommendations. The most likely bar I've seen so far is the 205 gram Profile Cobra Wing Aero Base Bar.




    Quote Originally Posted by jnbrown View Post
    My wife and I love the Cabernet Red. We are going with a vertical fade, Red on top to clear carbon on the bottom.
    I'll have to show this to Mrs. R, who frets that the Red is too dark and 'looks black'. The clear coat has a depth effect, so that where the light reflects it shows red, but without direct light appears darker.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnbrown View Post
    Hoping to hit 28 lbs and $7 buying parts on ebay. Its fun to see what can be done with no regard to budgets.
    So, are you getting a Tetra or a Dragonfly? If it is $7K you hope to hit, the Dragonfly frame itself (sans paint, sans fork, sans everything) is $6.995K. You can download the spreadsheet I've attached, which might be helpful in terms of calculating weights and prices.

    It doesn't help that with a Calfee, you don't have help with OEM purchase of components. Maybe we could get Bikes Direct to purchase Calfee frames, and equip them that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by R900 View Post
    Nice, but why not a double instead of the triple for a show bike?
    If this were built strictly for show, not go, then a lot of things would be different. We'll be doing hills, with which California abounds, and so need the granny gear to handle these. A compact double wouldn't work, because we'd spin out at too low a speed.
    Last edited by Ritterview; 09-28-09 at 01:45 PM. Reason: Respond to jnbrown too.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    Thanks, and good pick up on the lack of stoker hand rests. Actually, Mrs. Ritterview never gets in the drops, her preferred riding stance is more Almira Gulch than Kristin Armstrong. I used the Edge drop handlebars because it was destined for the Edge booth, they were light, and Edge doesn't make a bullhorn.


    I figured I'd get Cane Creek Ergo Stoker Levers eventually. I hadn't known how much these weigh until now, they are 230 grams, which is more than the handlebar!



    So, I am going to switch out the Edge handlebar for a bullhorn. A bullhorn will be helpful, because spin bikes, with which Mrs. R is quite familiar, are equipped with these. I'd welcome recommendations. The most likely bar I've seen so far is the 205 gram Profile Cobra Wing Aero Base Bar.






    I'll have to show this to Mrs. R, who frets that the Red is too dark and 'looks black'. The clear coat has a depth effect, so that where the light reflects it shows red, but without direct light appears darker.



    So, are you getting a Tetra or a Dragonfly? If it is $7K you hope to hit, the Dragonfly frame itself (sans paint, sans fork, sans everything) is $6.995K. You can download the spreadsheet I've attached, which might be helpful in terms of calculating weights and prices.

    It doesn't help that with a Calfee, you don't have help with OEM purchase of components. Maybe we could get Bikes Direct to purchase Calfee frames, and equip them that way.




    If this were built strictly for show, not go, then a lot of things would be different. We'll be doing hills, with which California abounds, and so need the granny gear to handle these. A compact double wouldn't work, because we'd spin out at too low a speed.
    I actually bought a pair of the Cane Creek stoker levers myself and was surprised when I received them how heavy they were. I has going to take a drill to the body, but my wife didn't like the shape of them so I have never mounted them. Another option is would be to find some broken Shimano or Campy shifters on ebay. I tried that for a while but was surprised by how much broken shifters are selling for.

    It's hard to tell from the lighting, but in one of the pictures the paint looks like its translucent and not opaque. That could explain why it looks dark. I got some photos from another Calfee owner of the opaque red fading to clear carbon and the red looks much brighter.

    We are getting the Tetra, and Calfee recently raised the price $600 but they gave me the old price since I had been talking to them prior to the increase. I looked at your spreadsheet but have my own as well.
    The only area I wish I could do better is the crankset, I am going with the Gossamer because it so much cheaper and they seem to have worked well for others with the exception of the bottom brackets which I might replace with Chris Kings.

  10. #10
    Tandem Mountain Climber
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    Re cranks:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    I've long been a fan of the Lightning crank, as it was the only light crank that will work with the Quarq powermeter.

    I've corresponded at times with Tim Brummer, the principal with Lightning, and the holder of the crank patent.

    When I started researching tandem cranks a couple of months ago, I came to the awful realization that our choices were crummy. I emailed Tim Brummer informing him of the dearth of tandem cranksets, and pointed out that since the Lightning already has a triple, it isn't such a large step to make a tandem crankset as well. He's expressed growing interest to me, and I am glad to see that this is getting around.

    The Lightning crank has been much discussed on the Weight Weenie forum. A lot of information on these multi-page threads:

    Lightning Cranks: now April


    Lightning Crank photos

    Madcow at Fairwheel bicycles is famous for his reviews of weight weenie components. His crankset review included the Lightning crank, and is generally favorable.

    A Lightning crank could offer significant tandem weight savings. The most modern outboard bearing tandem crankset now is the 1820 gram FSA SLK Carbon Mego Exo. A Lightning tandem crankset with a titanium spindle would weigh 1300 grams, a savings of 520 grams, or 1.15 lbs. For someone who already had a crankset, this upgrade would cost $3/gram.

    For a new build considering cranks, the Lightning would be well within reason on a gram per dollar basis:

    FSA SLK Carbon Mego Exo...........1820 gm................ $760
    Lightning Carbon Tandem..............1300 gm...............$1500
    Difference...................................520 gm..............$740

    Price per gram......................... ($740/520 gm =)........$1.4 /gm

    As to whether the Lightning crank is sufficiently robust to handle tandem loads, the Madcow review had pretty good stiffness, there is already a heavy duty version, and replacing the aluminum spindle with titanium should further upgrade its capacity, and Brummer can make other modifications to the crank if needed (e.g. stronger spyder).
    Here's a nice crank/bb setup:

    Davinici crankset is 1311g (per TG's journal)
    plus DaVinci now sells lightweight square taper BBs in steel and Ti
    Steel ($38) 215g (x2)=430g = total 1741g for $626
    Titanium ($105) 160g (x2)=320g = total 1631g for $760.

    So not as light as the Lightning (obviously), but...
    - Much cheaper
    - Lighter than the FSA carbon!!
    - Available is basically any lengths you want (Lightning seems to have this covered too, but many other options do not).
    - Any Q-factor you want, based on which BB you chose.

    With that said, the Lightning looks very nice, and I would consider it in the distant future inorder to use the belt drive. Especially if we can put a Quarq or two in there at some point.

  11. #11
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    We have the Profile Cobra Wing bars front and back and we find them very comfortable. However, they are not light. The stoker bar is much lighter than a bar with the Cane Creek rests that it replaced. Why not cut off the ends of the Edge bar and flip it?

    It's great to know that older Campy derailleurs work with 11sp and they will shift a triple. Now all we need is a new wheel, cassette, and brifters.
    Last edited by rmac; 09-28-09 at 02:26 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac View Post
    We ave the Profile Cobra Wing bars front and back and we find them very comfortabe. However, they are not light. Why not cut off the ends of the Edge bar and flip it?

    It's great to know that older derailleurs work with 11sp and they will shift a triple. Now all we need is a new wheel, cassette, and brifters.
    Might need new hubs too... some of them don't work with 11-spd cassettes. Just FYI.

    Oh you said new wheel... oops

  13. #13
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac View Post
    We have the Profile Cobra Wing bars front and back and we find them very comfortable. However, they are not light.

    Why not cut off the ends of the Edge bar and flip it?
    They are advertised as being 205-210 grams. Is that optimistic?

    I've thought about doing that, but I am not sure the shape would be as optimal as a purpose-built bullhorn bar. I also have an ITM K-Sword I'm not using, and I've thought about cutting and uptilting that as well. I'd like to hear from someone with experience about how well this drop-bar cutting business works out before I wield the hacksaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uspspro View Post
    Re cranks:



    Here's a nice crank/bb setup:

    Davinici crankset is 1311g (per TG's journal)
    plus DaVinci now sells lightweight square taper BBs in steel and Ti
    Steel ($38) 215g (x2)=430g = total 1741g for $626
    Titanium ($105) 160g (x2)=320g = total 1631g for $760.

    So not as light as the Lightning (obviously), but...
    - Much cheaper
    - Lighter than the FSA carbon!!
    - Available is basically any lengths you want (Lightning seems to have this covered too, but many other options do not).
    - Any Q-factor you want, based on which BB you chose.

    With that said, the Lightning looks very nice, and I would consider it in the distant future inorder to use the belt drive. Especially if we can put a Quarq or two in there at some point.
    I have considered it, but whether it is rational or not I have a mental block to going back to square taper bottom brackets after using the outboard bearings on my other bikes. Also a set of Gossamers cost $357 and weigh 1893g. If I add the C.K. bottom brackets then price goes to $597. Now I am approaching the Davinci's and 152g heavier. Wish there were better options.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Ritterview, very nice set-up you've got there! You've got me by a few lbs but I don't think I will complain. That's one of the downfalls of being a big/powerful guy. I can't wait to hear how those Edge wheels work out for you. I like the fact that the spoke holes are molded in but not the fact that they don't offer more holes. I spent quite a bit of time talking with a rep at the TOC about them. I was impressed. My Zipps have been awesome so far. Having owned and raced on Zipps for years on my single bikes they are exactly what I expect.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    They are advertised as being 205-210 grams. Is that optimistic?

    I've thought about doing that, but I am not sure the shape would be as optimal as a purpose-built bullhorn bar. I also have an ITM K-Sword I'm not using, and I've thought about cutting and uptilting that as well. I'd like to hear from someone with experience about how well this drop-bar cutting business works out before I wield the hacksaw.
    Actually, the Cobra Wing stoker bars are a little lighter, 193 g. The front bars are 315 g.

  17. #17
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac View Post
    Actually, the Cobra Wing stoker bars are a little lighter, 193 g. The front bars are 315 g.
    Is that the actual weight you took on a scale? If so, that's exciting, as the switch from the Edge drop bars would shave 6 grams!

  18. #18
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    c/f round stoker pegs. Check with Precision Tandems. Also may handle the adjustable c/f stoker stem.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #19
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    Wow, I am away for a few months and look another weight-weenie tandem. Glad to see you got your new tandem, it's a real looker.

    I have spoken to Jason in the past and he seems to really know his stuff, I would trust his weight guesstimate. 23 - 23.5 has got our Rugammer beat at 25.9 (weighed last Friday).
    "Never use your face as a brake pad" - Jake Watson

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    Ritterview great looking ride can't wait to see it on the rode.

    Carbon clinchers have always been on my wish list (single bike) but I have shied away from them because of concrens with heat build up on some of the local descents. At 200lbs I have been lead to believe that carbon rims may asking for trouble, how is that going to translate to 300+ lbs on a tandem.

    As a point of reference I did get some melting of the plastic bits on the Avid BB7 coming down Nacimiento Road this weekend.

  21. #21
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chichi View Post
    Ritterview great looking ride can't wait to see it on the rode.

    Carbon clinchers have always been on my wish list (single bike) but I have shied away from them because of concrens with heat build up on some of the local descents. At 200lbs I have been lead to believe that carbon rims may asking for trouble, how is that going to translate to 300+ lbs on a tandem.

    As a point of reference I did get some melting of the plastic bits on the Avid BB7 coming down Nacimiento Road this weekend.
    I am very concerned about the possibility of carbon rim heat. I am not going to melt these rims, nor have a blow out from air pressurization.

    • The dual calipers are for some initial flat rides that we'll do, along the likes of Foothill Expressway, Canada Road, etc.


    • Prior to us doing any hills, I will switch out the rear caliper for an Avid BB7. Note that the rear hub is a DT Swiss 240S Disc Brake, and the frame has disc brake mounts.


    • I'll probably use an aluminum rimmed front wheel for hills initially, and assess how hot it gets. I don't know how much I can rely on the BB7 versus the front brake. Depending on what I find, I may end up using this rim whenever we do serious hills. Its easy to change out a front wheel, and the ee brakes are especially easy to change out brake pads.


    • I've thought about leaving the rear ee brake caliper (its only 91 grams) on even after I get the BB7, and splitting the cable. That way the rear rim could share the rim heat load with the front. Rich at Wheelbuilders, however, thought that this would just end up melting my rear rim.

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    rim heating issues

    Of course disk brakes eliminate rim heating issues. This is why I would love a rear disk brake on a bomber set of tubulars for our tandem. At this time we are having a tandem built up w/Rolfs as a general purpose and all round racing wheel set. And save the Zipps for time trials and bling.

    Below is a post I made several years ago. We have raced on and ruined several tandem wheel sets. Although many new carbon fiber wheels (e.g. carbon clinchers) have been introduced since I posted, the info remains quite relevant. And despite the evolution of brake pads designed for carbon tubular wheels, there is simply not enough transfer of heat (nor would you want) to suffice for use on tandems other than dedicated TT tandems.

    Also note that if you make a disk brake large enough, you can machine/remove the inside material and mount a tire to the outermost piece!

    < snip >

    We struggled with selection of an aero wheel set for the tandem. Our final solution was to get two wheel sets: Zipp 530's (clincher) and Velocity DeepV's. With carbon wheels there is simply not enough material to absorb/dissipate heat when having to brake extensively (places where you can not let the bike run out such as "switch-backs"). If one plans to ride on such roads, be aware of heat going into wheels with little material to absorb/dissipate heat. It is for precisely this reason that I built up the Velocity DeepV wheel set - the wheel set we use for riding in serious hills (e.g. Leakey) and poor quality roads (e.g. cattle guards). Deep V rims have a lot of aluminum to absorb the heat and large side walls to help the heat dissipate.

    </snip>

    BTW - a beautiful Calfee tandem.
    Last edited by etasch; 09-29-09 at 02:59 PM.

  23. #23
    Tandem Mountain Climber
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    Quote Originally Posted by etasch View Post

    Also note that if you make a disk brake large enough, you can machine/remove the inside material and mount a tire to the outermost piece!
    No comprendo...

  24. #24
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Sep 2005
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    BMC Pro Machine SLC01, Specialized Globe, Burley Rock 'N Roll tandem, Calfee Dragonfly tandem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheresWaldo View Post
    I have spoken to Jason [at Fairwheel] in the past and he seems to really know his stuff, I would trust his weight guesstimate. 23 - 23.5 has got our Rugammer beat at 25.9 (weighed last Friday).
    Jason has Sheldon Brown level omniscience on weight weenie stuff, and as I said, was super helpful. So with this in mind, here are pics with taken upon its completion at Fairwheel before being shipped to Edge in Utah. There are no seatposts yet, because Edge was going to install them. The Fairwheel Mini provides the advertising plug. These pics show the S-Works carbon water bottle holders. I got these in red, but I find that these clash with, rather than pick up, the Cabernet Red of the frame. Hopefully I can switch these out to black.






  25. #25
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chichi View Post
    Ritterview great looking ride can't wait to see it on the rode.

    Carbon clinchers have always been on my wish list (single bike) but I have shied away from them because of concrens with heat build up on some of the local descents. At 200lbs I have been lead to believe that carbon rims may asking for trouble, how is that going to translate to 300+ lbs on a tandem.

    As a point of reference I did get some melting of the plastic bits on the Avid BB7 coming down Nacimiento Road this weekend.

    I haven't had a problem with carbon clinchers overheating but I have with carbon sew-ups. I had the glue melt and the rear tire come off under breaking at the bottom of the hill heading into Borrego Springs a few years back. The result wasn't very pretty. I've been up and down Nacimiento Road bunches of times with no problem (it's not too far from my house).
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

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