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  1. #1
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    Rear wheel problems

    I have two problems with a rear wheel on a Santana Beyond. We run a Velocity Fusion 32 hole rim on a Hadley hub along with the 10 inch Winzip disk brake. We popped a spoke.

    First problem I encountered was removing the disk. I have not been able to break it free from the hub. I finally resorted to unbolting the disk from the thread on adaptor to gain better access. I finally took the wheel to the LBS and using a strap wrench and then a lockring wrench, they could not budge it either. Does anyone have any tricks to try or suggested tools? (yes we are turning it the right way)

    I was able to work the broken spoke out past the adapter and find I have a triple butted 13/15/14 288 mm spoke. I have had no luck finding anywhere to buy a few spokes. Do not especially want to buy a whole box. The 288 mm spokes in there seem a tad long so could get by with 286 if necessary. Any supplier suggestions?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Are you the original owner, is it the original wheel and how old is the bike?
    FWIW: Santana affords original owners a two-year warranty on their wheels.

    Anyway, I would think any of the better wheel builders in your local area (a real wheel builder, not just a shop that offers to build wheels) would be able to support you and you can always contact Santana if this is the wheel that came on your tandem. Even if it's out of warranty they'll likely have the spokes... and I'd suggest getting a couple as broken spokes tend to propagate. Moreover, if you do have a second or third broken spoke in the near future that's a pretty good indication that the wheel needs to be rebuilt with a complete set of new spokes. Other sources are tandem specialty dealers like TandemsEast.com, PrecisionTandems.com, etc...

    As for the disc adapter, the ones from DT Swiss have wrench flats so if you get the one that's on your tandem off and it doesn't have those wrench flats you might want to consider getting a DT model.



    Other than soaking the thread interface with penetrating oil for 24hrs, blow drying and then applying heat to the disk adapter I'm not sure what else you can do to help free it up.... short of splitting the adapter and then replacing it with a DT Swiss model and applying a generous amount of anti-seize compound before installing it. After that and as a preventative maintenance step, I'd make a point of removing the disc rotor every couple months to clean and reply the anti-seize compound.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 01-26-10 at 06:54 AM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Mine had loctite on the threads, totally useless.

  4. #4
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    Since you already have the disk off. Use a bench vice as a wrench. Set the disk adapter in a vice. Tighten the vice no more than you would an adjustable wrench. I like to have the wheel horizontal. Grab the rim with one hand on each side of the wheel and turn - in the correct direction. It should come off.

    If not get the torch... that will fix it...

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    Just use a double butted 14/15/14 spoke.

  6. #6
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    Thank you for all the suggestions. To answer some questions, yes we are the original owners and have had it over two years now. Original wheel was the Sweet 16 but the rim spit at just about the 2 year mark. Santana did replace the wheel with another Sweet 16 but suggested we buy the Velocity Fusion as a daily runner and save the Sweet 16 for faster runs and showing off. So we put a Velocity rim on just 3 months ago. I threaded the disk and adapter on by hand and let normal braking force tighten it on it's own.

    I went to several other LBS today and got some more suggestions. The shop we bought the tandem through told me what they went through to pull the adapter off last time (off the Sweet 16) and they did not have a proper tool. They fudged and used a Hozan C203 Head set pliers, cheater bar, two people to handle it all and finally broke it free after MUCH work.

    One shop suggested getting an old disk and mounting it to the adapter, then put two pins into a vice to grab the disk and turn the wheel. Might try that. I do not like the idea of grabbing the adapter in the vice direct because if it is on this tight, you would have to really bear down on the adapter and thus probably deform it and really chew it up.

    The DT adapter sounds like a good way to go for future removal, but there must be a proper tool though for removing the original adapter. I am contacting Santana next. Humm - the found the DT adapter online ($48) but it states only will work on 145 mm rear spacing (Santana is 160). My guess it will work though (right TandemGeek?)

    I did find the triple butted 13/15/14 spokes at Precision Tandem website. I will check with Santana too when I contact them.

    Pause - Just made the call to Santana and we can buy the spokes from them (and getting a few extra just in case). As far as a tool to remove the adapter, they fabricate their own for use in the shop. Tim said a standard spanner wrench with a LONG handle would work for home use. You just need LOTS of leverage.

  7. #7
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djedgar View Post
    The DT adapter sounds like a good way to go for future removal, but there must be a proper tool though for removing the original adapter. I am contacting Santana next. Humm - the found the DT adapter online ($48) but it states only will work on 145 mm rear spacing (Santana is 160). My guess it will work though (right TandemGeek?)
    While axle width shouldn't matter if the I.S. specs for disc caliper are used with a disc compatible hub, hub specs for tandems can play havoc on what 'should' word. On the bright side, I believe the DT Swiss adapters come in a variety of different widths / thicknesses. Mark Johnson at Precision Tandems (or the folks at Santana) would know which one to use on a Santana with a Hadley hub and I believe Mark and/or Mel at Tandems East carry them in the different widths.

  8. #8
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    I had a similar problem removing a stubborn disc adaptor. After drenching it with penetrating oil for a couple of days, I covered the adaptor with old heavy cloth and used a very large pipe wrench to remove it. The wrench left a couple of small marks on each side of the adaptor but it did come off.

  9. #9
    Senior Member coloroadie's Avatar
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    Here's a trick for removing threaded brake drums from rear hubs:

    With the rear wheel mounted on the bike as normal, have a heavy assistant sit on the rear seat. Next, apply the drum brake, and push the bike backwards.

    If you have enough weight over the rear wheel hub and can get the the wheel to rotate while the drum is held stationary, the drum will be broken free from the hub. You can then remove it and unthread it by hand.

    Since disc brakes generate more torque and heat than drum brakes, this technique may not work for your application, but it's worth a try!

  10. #10
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coloroadie View Post
    Since disc brakes generate more torque and heat than drum brakes, this technique may not work for your application, but it's worth a try!
    It typically works in all but the most severe thread-lock scenarios, at which point the rear tire simply skids under load.

  11. #11
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    Can the spoke be replaced with the adapter on? I had a rear wheel rebuilt by Velocity and I took the rotor off and the wheel was rebuilt with the adapter on the hub.

  12. #12
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    To answer the latest comments and questions:

    I had already tried the reverse breaking. No luck in the 10 attempts without tire skid but maybe it takes more attempts. But then as mentioned, the adapter is really on tight and this method may not work in my case.

    And YES to being able to get a spoke in with adapter in place. I have to put a very slight curve on the spoke and work it past the adapter but it does make it. I had done this with a straight gauge spoke a few days ago just to get us back on the road until I could find some triple butted ones.

    So I could leave the adapter on but eventually it has to come off if I wanted to switch over to my Sweet 16s at some point. I do have option of buying a second adapter and maybe disk but I want to get that adapter off just on principle now.

    My next step will be to find any old disk that will fit and bolt or weld on a long lever to it. Once mounted to the adapter, I can use the long lever & disk to twist it off. I will keep you posted.

  13. #13
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    Santanas seem to have some unique issues . . .

  14. #14
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonatandem View Post
    Santanas seem to have some unique issues . . .
    ... but this ain't one of them.

    There are a lot of folks out there who have threaded-on disc rotors that have yet to discover they can't get the adapters off. The wrench flats on the DT Swiss merely 'help' by providing a way to get bite on the adapter, which is only one aspect of the solution to getting a threaded adapter back off once it becomes 'fused' to the hub vis-a-vis the combination of grit, moisture, heat and torque that it is subjected to.

    Now, as for the Sweet 16, that's not unique to Santana either as previous surveys have shown. All of the boutique wheel have their issues... and I do mean all.

  15. #15
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    The following posting to Tandem@Hobbes may be of interest to anyone who was following this thread, pursuant to the Sweet 16's:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCready from Tandem@Hobbes
    A post from Bill at Santana

    I need to apologize to Ken and his dealer if our message on rims was confusing.

    Santana and Shimano are both understandably proud of the Sweet-16 / Dura Ace tandem wheelset. Shimano recently agreed to continue the production their tandem wheelset (with all-new tooling) at their new wheel factory. During this change-over the supply of spare rims has become limited. To prevent customers or dealers from hoarding rims and/or "cornering the market," Santana now requires that wheels be shipped to us for rim replacement. While this was always the policy with warranty work, it now also applies to wheels with expired warranties.

    While this change caught some of our dealers by surprise, we've softened the blow somewhat by servicing the other wheel for free. Since UPS shipping costs are the same for either one or two wheels, if you simply send in both wheels, we'll re-tension and re-true the second wheel at no charge. Because inadequate tension is the root cause of rim and spoke fatigue (and most of the wheels we receive here are significantly under-tensioned), this free service should dramatically extend the service life of other wheel.

    Because tension is important for any wheel, and critical for low-spoke wheels, since 2006 our website has included a Sweet-16 service advisory. This advisory, which is also included with new wheels and bikes shipped since 2006, clarifies Shimano's original instructions for servicing 16-spoke wheels. Additionally, it includes a novel way for wheelbuilders to verify the calibration of their tensiometers (and for customers to audit proper tension without a tensiometer). Owners of Sweet-16 wheels who are unaware of the "G-method" of checking tension are invited to download this advisory from the Library section of the Santana Tandem website.

    Bill McCready; Founder and Prezguy
    Santana Cycles, Inc

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