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Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

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Old 03-09-10, 07:14 AM   #1
MaxCady
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Di2 option for Santana Team and Beyond modells

I found a quite interesting option for the 2010 Team- and Beyond- models in Europe/Germany. You can purchase and upgrade to the Shimano Dura Ace Di2 (20s; 11-30) for 2.000$. I’m really not a Shimano enthusiast, but I can imagine a benefit in front shifting. What about this Santana-offer in America?
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Old 03-09-10, 10:14 AM   #2
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Not yet, Max . . .
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Old 03-09-10, 04:20 PM   #3
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Not yet, Max . . .
I was up at Santana Central a couple months ago and they were selling it here in the US.
We played with one on a workstand in the shop that was to be Wayne Stetina's bike we were told. Very precise shifting all through from high to low.
I myself don't like the big jumps of the 11/30 and think a compact setup would suit me better.
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Old 03-09-10, 06:27 PM   #4
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I was up at Santana Central a couple months ago and they were selling it here in the US.
In fact, in checking with Bill McCready at Santana today just to be sure I had my facts straight, the optional "tandem-specific Shimano-approved" Di2 shifting has been available in the US since October.

Moreover, Shimano has a Santana Beyond Di2 test mule in their possession that is being used for additional refinements. The most recent change in the Santana Di2 is a revised standard, wide range 11-32 cassette with the buyer's choice of 50/34 compact rings, 53/39 pro rings, or a 'switch hitter' (my term) set-up with an extra self-extracting Octalink carbon drive-side crank and second (shorter) chain that will allow them to switch between "compact/climbing" and "pro" gearing in ten minutes or less. Bill also noted that because the "pro" crankarm supports a granny ring, it should support a future upgrade to an expected triple Shimano Di2 (3?) system.

As you can imagine, everyone at Santana is pretty excited by the Di2 system and believe that other component makers will eventually release similar push-button / paddle shifting systems in the not too distant future in much the same way that integrated shifting became the standard many years back.
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Old 03-09-10, 10:01 PM   #5
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Here is a review ride report on a Di2 equipped machine, (since sold):


"You've read about it, I've ridden it. I've received one of the first
Di2-equipped Santana's shipped, a PHD-framed Santana Beyond. I
unboxed it, set it up to my measurements, installed the battery,
added my pedals and Susan's pedals, and took it out for a short
"shake-down" cruise of 4-5 miles through the neighborhood around our
shop. I quickly adapted to the push-button shifting, and discovered
that I needed to tweak the rear derailleur adjustment slightly. Back
to the shop. Open the instruction book (why didn't I take better
notes at Interbike???), and a few taps on the lever and it seemed to
be in perfect adjustment. Another 2-3 miles around the neighborhood
confirmed it was now spot on.

The next day, Susan and I headed out on one of our favorite 30-mile
rides, some flats, some short, but noticeable hills. The bike shifted
flawlessly. In fact, I don't think it could have worked any better.
Normally on this ride, a new tandem would require some minor
adjustments at the end of the ride, as the cables would have
stretched slightly. Not so with the Di2! No cables/no minor
adjustments required.

Say what you want about mixing/matching components, but this mix of
parts works extremely well. Santana found the Shimano parts in the
catalog that allowed the Di2 levers/batterypack/shifters to be
installed on a tandem. They paired the Di2 stuff with their carbon
Octalink crank and an 11/30 10-sp rear cassetter, made by the same
company that makes IRD 10-sp cassettes. It all works as if it was
designed together!

35 miles isn't the longest test ride, but this is a demo bike in our
shop. I need to keep the miles down, at least until I sell our
current ride (a 2009 Santana Sovereign, Medium Scandium frame, S&S
couplers). Then I can justify making the 2010 Beyond our daily rider!

The double-crank isn't for everyone, but for the go-fast crowd who
travels light, the 39/30 low gear should be adequate for most
terrain. And as one of my customers said, "I've never found a hill I
couldn't walk!" Those who prefer a bike set up for loaded touring
might prefer to stay with cable-operated 3x10 setups, at least until
the "Di3" arrives. "


Jack Goertz
Tandems, Ltd
Birmingham, AL
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Old 03-10-10, 10:01 AM   #6
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I think the Di2 is a great concept for a Tandem given the long derailleur cable lengths. However without a triple option - it's worthless to us.
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Old 03-10-10, 11:55 AM   #7
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...the optional "tandem-specific Shimano-approved" Di2 shifting has been available in the US since October...As you can imagine, everyone at Santana is pretty excited by the Di2 system...
The excitement hasn't spilled over onto their website.

Your search - di2 site:http://santanatandem.com - did not match any documents.


Di2 does appear on a European Santana price list, for $2000.
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Old 03-10-10, 12:53 PM   #8
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The excitement hasn't spilled over onto their website.
Yeah, I noticed that too... but that's not all that unusual; Santana has not fully embraced the Web-based commerce / marketing model.

My sense over the years has been that Santana wants visitors and interested parties to "send for a catalog or give us a call so we can send you a catalog", which they do religously. And, once you're on their mailing list you're always on their mailing list. Interestingly enough, last time I checked, just as it was in '96.... when somone receives that catalog they also typically receive a contact form for their nearest authorized dealer. In other words, Santana has always been focused on building relationships and getting it's catalog into the hands of consumers: the catalog does a very good job of selling the tandem lifestyle and pumping up the Santana brand, albeit with a lot of over the top marketing spin.

In regard to the latter, their Annual Tandems & Tandeming Catazine should be coming out pretty soon and just judging by what Bill sent me yesterday, I suspect some of what I read was cut and pasted out of the new catazine. Once that is on the street the Web site typically gets an update... and well, all heck breaks loose on the tandem forums as folks dissect the aforementioned over the top marketing spin.

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Old 07-17-15, 10:31 AM   #9
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On my 3rd Tandem and 2nd Santana. Current rig: 2009 Beyond w/7900 triple, Rolf's. My only issue has been its a bit flexy. Considering PHD. Trying to justify the cost for a stiffer frame. Anyone out the made the leap?
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Old 07-17-15, 11:46 AM   #10
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On my 3rd Tandem and 2nd Santana. Current rig: 2009 Beyond w/7900 triple, Rolf's. My only issue has been its a bit flexy. Considering PHD. Trying to justify the cost for a stiffer frame. Anyone out the made the leap?
Unless you are stuck on Santana why not consider Calfee?
Their standard model is plenty stiff AND super smooth riding for us.
A huge improvement in ride quality over our previous Santana Sovereign.
I am sure Calfee can make you an extra stiff frame if needed.
Also you are not locked into proprietary things like 160mm rear spacing that limit your component choices and increase Q factor.
Not bashing Santana, our Sovereign we had for many years was a great tandem so nothing wrong with staying with Santana if that is your desire.
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Old 07-17-15, 11:54 AM   #11
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.
I am sure Calfee can make you an extra stiff frame if needed.
.
We're a fairly large team, and can twist our Co-Motion Robusta pretty well. (oversized aluminum tubes, with a lateral tube)

We just got Calfee Dragonfly, with the extrastiff option, which as I understand it gets you a larger diameter top tube.

The bike is rock solid, noticeably stiffer than our Co-Mo. Of course the frame cost more than the entire Robusta.
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Old 07-20-15, 05:30 AM   #12
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On my 3rd Tandem and 2nd Santana. Current rig: 2009 Beyond w/7900 triple, Rolf's. My only issue has been its a bit flexy. Considering PHD. Trying to justify the cost for a stiffer frame. Anyone out the made the leap?
We've had our Beyond PHD for about a year (2000+ miles) and had the opportunity to ride a standard Beyond for about 50miles before purchasing the PHD. I would say the PHD is stiffer but not by a lot so I would find it tough to justify cost of a move up based on stiffness. Our bike is a Large frame with couplers and we are a large team (400lbs). The bike does seem plenty stiff where it counts in the BB area so the power gets to the ground but if we hit a really high cadence we do get some "bounce". To be fair it is hard to separate out frame flex from the all carbon cockpits and the Spinergy wheels.

The bike is one of the most comfortable bikes I have ever ridden. It just glides down the road and really eats up rough pavement. The wife (stoker) uses the standard carbon seat post and Terry saddle and has never complained or showed any interest in a suspension seat post.
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Old 07-20-15, 10:03 AM   #13
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However without a triple option - it's worthless to us.

After riding our tandem with the triple 10 speed, a double 11 speed with the same range would be GREAT! my only experience before the triple 10 was a triple 8 speed tandem though. I would enjoy to try a double chainring tandem at some point.



a Tandem with a 36/52 crankset and an 11-32 would be great I think... compare that to what we have now 30,39,52t and an 11-28 cassette. We ride mostly in the 39/52t with the occasional downshift to the 30t ring but never to the real granny cog-though I could see if you live in mountains.



The cadence split between gears in a tandem has me double shifting gears as is because of the extra power the team puts out vs a single rider- that's where I think the double chainring wide ratio cassette will be fine-imo. More time with the 3x10 may give me a different outlook but I don't think it will change my opinion for where we live.
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Old 07-20-15, 11:23 AM   #14
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After riding our tandem with the triple 10 speed, a double 11 speed with the same range would be GREAT! my only experience before the triple 10 was a triple 8 speed tandem though. I would enjoy to try a double chainring tandem at some point.



a Tandem with a 36/52 crankset and an 11-32 would be great I think... compare that to what we have now 30,39,52t and an 11-28 cassette. We ride mostly in the 39/52t with the occasional downshift to the 30t ring but never to the real granny cog-though I could see if you live in mountains.



The cadence split between gears in a tandem has me double shifting gears as is because of the extra power the team puts out vs a single rider- that's where I think the double chainring wide ratio cassette will be fine-imo. More time with the 3x10 may give me a different outlook but I don't think it will change my opinion for where we live.
Gearing is always team dependent. We ride lots of flats and rollers - and then do lots of long and sometimes steep climbs. Our gearing is a 26/39/53 with a 12/30 10sp rear - all Campy. Having the nice small jumps between gears - regardless of a what a gear calculator will show - is nice for our fitness level and where we ride. The ability to go to much lower gears only when we need them is also a priority for use. Going to something with bigger gaps in the cluster isn't what we would want and a 36x32 won't get us up a 5 mile climb that averages near 7% like we rode last weekend.
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Old 07-20-15, 11:55 AM   #15
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That was the "where we live" comment at the end comes into play.

Im in Kingston, Ontario and there are no real hills here. There are a few nice rolling hills, but nothing THAT long nor THAT steep that we would be unable to climb with the ratios we have.
Couple that with the fact that we are both in our 20's.... im sure as we age we will need some taller gearing. I wouldn't hesitate to use a 12-32 of 12-36 with our current crankset if we needed more low end.
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Old 07-20-15, 12:06 PM   #16
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That was the "where we live" comment at the end comes into play.

Im in Kingston, Ontario and there are no real hills here. There are a few nice rolling hills, but nothing THAT long nor THAT steep that we would be unable to climb with the ratios we have.
Couple that with the fact that we are both in our 20's.... im sure as we age we will need some taller gearing. I wouldn't hesitate to use a 12-32 of 12-36 with our current crankset if we needed more low end.
Yeah and we're both in our 50's
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Old 07-24-15, 08:34 AM   #17
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I think the Di2 is a great concept for a Tandem given the long derailleur cable lengths. However without a triple option - it's worthless to us.
Why is a triple essential? With a 50-34 crank and a 11-32 cassette, the low gear is the same as a typical triple setup. There is also the option to use 34 or 40T cassette for extra low gearing. We don't miss the granny at all.
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Old 07-26-15, 07:25 PM   #18
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Why is a triple essential? With a 50-34 crank and a 11-32 cassette, the low gear is the same as a typical triple setup. There is also the option to use 34 or 40T cassette for extra low gearing. We don't miss the granny at all.
For some teams a triple may not be essential - for US - emphasis on US - it is. Just like disc brakes - I wouldn't ride a tandem without them - then again - we've hit 70 mph going downhill and are not a young lightweight team. I want all the brake I can put on the damn thing.

We like to spin and don't like big jumps in gearing. I currently run 26/39/53 with a 12-30 10 speed Campy drive train. So when I need to get up a 15%+ grade or long sustained climbs we can and not struggle. I had compact on my single and hated it. While it was probably more of an issue because of the shorter seat stays - I couldn't run the 11,12 or 13 in it with the 34 and constantly was running in the larger cogs in the back with the 50 in front. I just this year switched to a mid compact 36/52 with a 12/29 11 speed Campy and like it much more.

All tandem teams are not created equal.
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Old 07-27-15, 03:00 PM   #19
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For some teams a triple may not be essential - for US - emphasis on US - it is. Just like disc brakes - I wouldn't ride a tandem without them - then again - we've hit 70 mph going downhill and are not a young lightweight team. I want all the brake I can put on the damn thing.

We like to spin and don't like big jumps in gearing. I currently run 26/39/53 with a 12-30 10 speed Campy drive train. So when I need to get up a 15%+ grade or long sustained climbs we can and not struggle. I had compact on my single and hated it. While it was probably more of an issue because of the shorter seat stays - I couldn't run the 11,12 or 13 in it with the 34 and constantly was running in the larger cogs in the back with the 50 in front. I just this year switched to a mid compact 36/52 with a 12/29 11 speed Campy and like it much more.

All tandem teams are not created equal.
I agree. The choice between Di2 double and mechanical triple will be affected by terrain and riding style. In the Pacific NW, some roads can steepen abruptly. It's nice not to worry about mis-shifts or a dropped chain when grinding up a steep hill. Just like on our single bikes, we've learned to vary our cadence to deal with bigger gearing gaps and gradient changes. Our target cadence is around 90 rpm but it can drop to 60 or ramp up to 110 rpm. But we've noticed that some teams prefer to spin at a steady rate or at a lower cadence.

The Shimano XTR Di2 can handle double or triple chainrings, but my understanding is the XTR front derailleur is not compatible with Ultegra or Dura-Ace Di2.
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Old 09-19-15, 05:25 PM   #20
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We've had our Beyond PHD for about a year (2000+ miles) and had the opportunity to ride a standard Beyond for about 50miles before purchasing the PHD. I would say the PHD is stiffer but not by a lot so I would find it tough to justify cost of a move up based on stiffness. Our bike is a Large frame with couplers and we are a large team (400lbs). The bike does seem plenty stiff where it counts in the BB area so the power gets to the ground but if we hit a really high cadence we do get some "bounce". To be fair it is hard to separate out frame flex from the all carbon cockpits and the Spinergy wheels.

The bike is one of the most comfortable bikes I have ever ridden. It just glides down the road and really eats up rough pavement. The wife (stoker) uses the standard carbon seat post and Terry saddle and has never complained or showed any interest in a suspension seat post.
This is exactly the kind of feedback I wanted. I priced out a new PhD and came up with a total price of $15K. My Beyond is probably worth $6,500. So, $8,500+ tax is hard to justify at this time.

Thanks
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Old 09-19-15, 05:33 PM   #21
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Unless you are stuck on Santana why not consider Calfee?
Their standard model is plenty stiff AND super smooth riding for us.
A huge improvement in ride quality over our previous Santana Sovereign.
I am sure Calfee can make you an extra stiff frame if needed.
Also you are not locked into proprietary things like 160mm rear spacing that limit your component choices and increase Q factor.
Not bashing Santana, our Sovereign we had for many years was a great tandem so nothing wrong with staying with Santana if that is your desire.
Of course I've considered a Calfee. Borrowed a friends for the weekend. Plenty stiff but not as comfy as the Beyond. Basically the same difference between my Carbon and Titanium Litespeed single bikes. For example, the fatigue factor riding a Century on the Litespeed compared to my Carbon single bikes is dramatic. It's easily 50% less fatigue. 100 miles feels like 50 on the Litespeed compared to Carbon single.
I'm keeping an eye out for a Calfee Tandem though so I can have the best of both worlds. Calfee for short fast rides and Beyond for long comfy rides.
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Old 09-20-15, 12:00 AM   #22
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Of course I've considered a Calfee. Borrowed a friends for the weekend. Plenty stiff but not as comfy as the Beyond. Basically the same difference between my Carbon and Titanium Litespeed single bikes. For example, the fatigue factor riding a Century on the Litespeed compared to my Carbon single bikes is dramatic. It's easily 50% less fatigue. 100 miles feels like 50 on the Litespeed compared to Carbon single.
I'm keeping an eye out for a Calfee Tandem though so I can have the best of both worlds. Calfee for short fast rides and Beyond for long comfy rides.
I don't know how ride quality can effect your fatigue level so much. I have quite a few bikes of various comfort levels but for a 100 mile ride I do not find any significant difference on performance in relation to ride quality.
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Old 09-21-15, 12:00 AM   #23
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For some teams a triple may not be essential - for US - emphasis on US - it is. Just like disc brakes - I wouldn't ride a tandem without them - then again - we've hit 70 mph going downhill and are not a young lightweight team.

.... I currently run 26/39/53 with a 12-30 10 speed Campy drive train......

Just curious where you hit 70mph? You were definitely spinning that 53-12 out......! :-)
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Old 09-22-15, 11:49 AM   #24
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Just curious where you hit 70mph? You were definitely spinning that 53-12 out......! :-)
Long spun out - Oakville Grade in Napa
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Old 09-22-15, 04:47 PM   #25
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FWIW local tandem dealer (referenced in my post several yrs ago) came back from the LV bike show reporting that Santana has experimented with Di2 11 spd
road brifters and XTR Di2 deraillers and was able to use this on a front triple, upto 50-52 teeth large CW (XTR FD really wants a smaller CW) but the RD will handle
out to 36t cassette. Santana reportedly will be selling their bikes with this as an option. The XTR electric FD is meant for double CW but apparently can swing a
triple, perhaps with firmware fiddle (?).
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