Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    14
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Need help with our potential first tandem.

    I've found a 96' Santana Arriva L/M that I'm considering purchasing. It's the original owner and it is equiped with XTR deraileurs and Deore cranks/brakes. Not sure about the wheels yet, looks to be in great condition but have requested more pictures. The owner wants $800 "firm".

    I ride a lot now (race cat 4) and my wife rides once or twice a week. Speed is the name of the game, not that we don't like just cruising, but speed is definitely a big part of it.

    Sooo, immediately I'm thinking complete overhall and new parts, disc brakes being the biggest consideration.

    Given it's a steel frame I'm sure having disc tabs welded on is no biggie and then having it powder coated. But wheels and hubs? 36 hole Velocity deep V's? What kind of hubs, 36h XTR disc hubs? I'm not sure of the front and rear spacing.

    Cranks, is a triple really necessary? Wife runs a compact double and I run a standard double.

    I'm sure I'll have many more questions, thanks in advance for any help.

  2. #2
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Northern California
    My Bikes
    BMC Pro Machine SLC01, Specialized Globe, Burley Rock 'N Roll tandem, Calfee Dragonfly tandem.
    Posts
    3,225
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    Cranks, is a triple really necessary? Wife runs a compact double and I run a standard double.
    Yeah, a triple is necessary on a tandem. If you encounter hills greater than, say, 6%, you'll want the granny gear. Tandems get up speed, and if you had a compact you'd be spinning out at around 30 mph which is frustrating. Tandems have a lot more inertia, and you'll want just the right gear ratio to maintain your speed. The triple provides that, a compact with a wide spaced cassette not so much.

    I've got a triple with a 12-27 11-speed, and it is very nice having fine gradations in the rear shifting.

  3. #3
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    My recommendation is to get the tandem if it appears to be in good shape and ride it as is... tuned-up as necessary before deciding what, if any, upgrades to make.

    For example, if you don't think you'll need a triple because your ride plans don't include any significant grades then you probably don't need anything more than the cantilever brakes that were fitted to the '95/'96 model year Santana Arriva. At best, you could do like we did with ours many moons ago and upgrade the LX canti's to an XT or XTR with the larger XTR brake blocks to get a little more 'bite'. Assuming it still has the original wheels, they would likely be Wheelsmith-made Edco 40h hubs laced to an Araya or MAVIC T217 rim which, again, while not sexy are more than adequate for your first six-months to year of tandem ownership.

    If y'all decide that tandeming is something you'll enjoy and want to upgrade your equipment or want a somewhat different frame, you could at that point resell your Arriva for about what you paid (which would be true even if you upgraded the bike; upgrades on older tandem frames typically have a very low ROI) while you search out a tandem that's better suited to your riding needs and preferences. At that point you may find that a performance / racing tandem would be more appropriate, then again perhaps a travel tandem might be of interest if you decide to start combining vacation travel with tandem cycling.

    Just something to think about before diving into upgrades.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 03-31-10 at 11:10 AM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    841
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    + 1 on TG comments. The $800 asking price seems like a good deal to me.

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    14
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thank you for the responses.

    I agree and we will spend some time on the bike prior to upgrading but I'd imagine it probably won't be long. The bike is green and well, if we get it, a fresh powdercoat is a virtual certainty. At which time we'd have to decide if we want the disc brake tab(s).

    Understood on the triple. Being an avid fixed/SS rider and racer I'm not the biggest fan of triples but also understand the momentum for the same reasons.

    As for resale, true if you're getting out of it, but wheels, cranks...can be swapped.

    Thanks again and I'll probably have more questions later.

  6. #6
    Senior Member WebsterBikeMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Just outside Kitchener, Ontario
    My Bikes
    Nishiki Continental, Bilenky custom travel tinker, home built winter bike based on Nashbar cross frrame
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    I've found a 96' Santana Arriva L/M that I'm considering purchasing. It's the original owner and it is equipped with XTR derailleurs and Deore cranks/brakes.

    Sooo, immediately I'm thinking complete overhaul and new parts, disc brakes being the biggest consideration.
    Disc brakes are heavier than what you have on there. The primary advantage being less concern about braking when riding on wet roads. Good rim brake shoes grip pretty well in the wet.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    Given it's a steel frame I'm sure having disc tabs welded on is no biggie and then having it powder coated. But wheels and hubs? 36 hole Velocity deep V's? What kind of hubs, 36h XTR disc hubs? I'm not sure of the front and rear spacing.
    It's a Santana. IIRC the front is the same as any other bike. The rear will be 160 mm.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    Cranks, is a triple really necessary? Wife runs a compact double and I run a standard double.
    If you ride where the hills are small or at least not steep, you can probably get away with a double. There are really two differences between riding tandem and single, and they both derive from the same thing. The second one is only a very well matched team can climb hills like they do on their singles. The first is that most individuals have a range of acceptable cadences, and those ranges are not typically identical. So on the tandem you want to stay in the overlap of your two cadence ranges, which generally means shifting more frequently, and wanting closely spaced gears. And when you are trying to climb, both of your "optimal" cadence ranges tend to be narrower, and may not overlap, which generally means you will need a lower gear than you would on a single. But hey, the bike comes with a triple. Ride it for a few months. If you never use the smallest chainring, think about what you'd like to change then.

  7. #7
    Hey let's ride. pathdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Allen, TX
    My Bikes
    Torelli road bike, Tsunami tandem
    Posts
    2,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'd be slow to upgrade anything on the bike unless it just doesn't work. Ride the bike for a while once tuned up. If you like and it fits you perfectly then upgrade a few parts as needed. If it doesn't work for you, sell it and recoup your money.

  8. #8
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    ... but I'd imagine it probably won't be long. The bike is green and well, if we get it, a fresh powdercoat is a virtual certainty. At which time we'd have to decide if we want the disc brake tab(s).
    Sounds like you're buying the wrong tandem (wrong parts, wrong color, etc...) unless you already have the parts you need sitting around and have the ability to do a repaint/powdercoat for very little money. That, or you just like messing around with bikes... which is OK too: just not all that cost effective if you're unsure how long you'll hold onto a bike where the component upgrades may or may not be portable.


    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    As for resale, true if you're getting out of it, but wheels, cranks...can be swapped.
    Not necessarily when it comes to tandems, especially if you decide to change tandem builders / brands. That Santana has 160mm rear spacing (as do all Santana's produced since the early 90's), whereas Co-Motion and most other contemporary tandems use 145mm rear spacing. You'll find a number of Cannondales from the 90's use 135mm, 140mm and 145mm depending on which year they were produced, and there are some other oddities out there. Crank swaps are possible so long as you're sticking with the same type of bottom bracket interface. Again, the Santana uses 73mm wide BBs with very wide spindles, whereas almost all others use 68mm with 118mm spindles on triples.. assuming we're talking JIS square taper which is what that Santana has. Santana tandems produced from about 2000 on use Octalink BB interfaces whereas other brands use FSA Mega-Exo, TruVative Giga-Pipe, etc... Again, it varies.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    787
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Sounds like you're buying the wrong tandem (wrong parts, wrong color, etc...) unless you already have the parts you need sitting around and have the ability to do a repaint/powdercoat for very little money. That, or you just like messing around with bikes... which is OK too: just not all that cost effective if you're unsure how long you'll hold onto a bike where the component upgrades may or may not be portable.




    Not necessarily when it comes to tandems, especially if you decide to change tandem builders / brands. That Santana has 160mm rear spacing (as do all Santana's produced since the early 90's), whereas Co-Motion and most other contemporary tandems use 145mm rear spacing. You'll find a number of Cannondales from the 90's use 135mm, 140mm and 145mm depending on which year they were produced, and there are some other oddities out there. Crank swaps are possible so long as you're sticking with the same type of bottom bracket interface. Again, the Santana uses 73mm wide BBs with very wide spindles, whereas almost all others use 68mm with 118mm spindles on triples.. assuming we're talking JIS square taper which is what that Santana has. Santana tandems produced from about 2000 on use Octalink BB interfaces whereas other brands use FSA Mega-Exo, TruVative Giga-Pipe, etc... Again, it varies.
    +1 on that. Hardly anything on a tandem is standard and/or swappable. Also Santana uses 1-1/4" fork steerer and stem where everybody else uses 1-1/8.
    I wouldn't say a compact double is bad idea if you are not going to be riding up any big hills.
    I actually have a "compact" triple with 50/38/28 chainrings mated with a 11/28 cassette and I am very happy with that setup.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    14
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Got better pictures of the bike. Looks pretty good, needs cleaned up but all things considered definitely worth the money from what I've been seeing.

    That said, I thank you for your input TandemGeek, great insight. I think we're going to hold out as I'd prefer something a bit more standard. Cranks, BBs and such don't bother me, non-standard axle length, I'm not a fan of and I was already iffy on the steel construction as I'd prefer aluminum. This bike is for doing group rides, speed is key as I'm pretty competitive and the wife's favorite part of cycling is drafting me at 25+.

    All that said, I',m really interested in the newer Cannondales, I'd imagine a much harsher ride...suspension seat post for the stoker compensate for that pretty well?

  11. #11
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    I'd imagine a much harsher ride...suspension seat post for the stoker compensate for that pretty well?
    Ride harshness these days is most a by product of your wheel and tire selection with one exception: the dual-disc road tandems are fitted with an over-built steel fork that provides very little road shock dampening compared to any other non-disc steel fork, never mind the various carbon forks on the market.

    There are a number of Cannondale owners on the forum who can provide more direct feedback if an when you find a C'dale and want to start a new thread with that in the subject line, i.e., tell me about this Cannondale.

    To be frank, I'm guessing a C'dale will be right up your alley if you guys are looking to hammer, regardless of your size.. even better if your two are at or above average in size / power.

  12. #12
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Northern California
    My Bikes
    BMC Pro Machine SLC01, Specialized Globe, Burley Rock 'N Roll tandem, Calfee Dragonfly tandem.
    Posts
    3,225
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I was thinking from your OP that a Cannondale is what you'd be looking for.

    • Aluminum frame and relatively stiff.
    • Inexpensive new, and available used.
    • Parts can be upgraded.
    • Sibling of the CAAD9.


    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    All that said, I',m really interested in the newer Cannondales, I'd imagine a much harsher ride...suspension seat post for the stoker compensate for that pretty well?
    You could try out one of the Specialized carbon seatposts with a Zertz insert, to finally establish whether these are just hype or actually dampen buzz.
    Last edited by Ritterview; 03-31-10 at 09:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If this is your first tandem, you've got a lot to learn!!!
    For the $$/year the 'tana seems to be a good price. The Arriva is not exactly top of the line in the 'tana line-up
    Santana is a bit of the odd duck. Not just anything tandem related will fit on the Santana as noted by others: fork diameters, BBs andd rear wheel spacing will limit you in choices in parts/upgrades.
    Having said that, for a first tandem consider it a learning machine; ride it as is.
    You can always sell it if you don't like tandeming or find the bike not to be suitable for go-fast rides.
    A newer go-fast tandem can set you back from $5,000 to $10,000+.
    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    14
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Ride harshness these days is most a by product of your wheel and tire selection with one exception: the dual-disc road tandems are fitted with an over-built steel fork that provides very little road shock dampening compared to any other non-disc steel fork, never mind the various carbon forks on the market.

    There are a number of Cannondale owners on the forum who can provide more direct feedback if an when you find a C'dale and want to start a new thread with that in the subject line, i.e., tell me about this Cannondale.

    To be frank, I'm guessing a C'dale will be right up your alley if you guys are looking to hammer, regardless of your size.. even better if your two are at or above average in size / power.
    Yeah, I was thinking c-dale from the get go as well. What concerns me is the J/M or L/S combo. I'm 6' and my wife is 5'10" but with legs that go on for days so the medium is probably well suited for her...I on the other hand prefer a smaller frame and a jumbo might be bigger than I'd normally prefer. Then the fact that they're not commonly stocked and we'd likely have to order. (we're in Phoenix)

    ...and yes I know we have a lot to learn..seems it's always that way but if you don't ask stupid questions...you don't learn.

  15. #15
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    Yeah, I was thinking c-dale from the get go as well. What concerns me is the J/M or L/S combo.
    This may sound a bit nutty, but if you don't have a bike shop that really knows much about tandems other than being able to order one, consider doing a long-distance transaction with a no-kidding tandem specialty dealer like Mel Kornbluh at Tandems East (Email: tandemwiz@aol.com). Mark Johnson at Precision Tandems would be a bit closer, but I don't think he's a Cannondale dealer.

    He (and some of the other tandem speciality dealers) sell to folks all over the US and the world. What they lack in geographic proximity they make up for with knowledge, advise and virtual support for those who can turn a wrench. Tandems have a few little qwerks and nuances in terms of how they are set-up and work, but once you've been walked through those most problems are easily solved using basic bicycle mech. skills. Moreover, given the cost of a tandem the trade-off on no sales tax sometimes allows a buyer to come out ahead on the total cost including shipping.

    Anyway, just a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevejaz View Post
    .and yes I know we have a lot to learn..seems it's always that way but if you don't ask stupid questions...you don't learn.
    The only stupid question is the one not asked. Trust me, this collection of tandem enthusiasts is anything but shy when it comes to pointing out flawed logic, questionable judgement or a potential mis-step as we all want to see anyone willing to give tandeming a try have a great first experience. If we didn't, we wouldn't invest the time here.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    841
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    How many hours have you two spent on a tandem? If I had no idea about how a tandem was going to work for us, I would buy something used/inexpensive first... if things work out then I would spend a small fortune getting something that closely meets our needs

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    649
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rent one for a weekend and get used to riding it. Handling a tandem is A LOT different than a single. You might have the time of your life or you might decide that it's not for you . After doing that, if you're still excited about getting one (hopefully you will!) start looking around.

    An Arriva is a very well built, comfortable, competent bike. Although you can go very fast on it, it's not designed as a racing machine. I wouldn't worry too much about Santanas not being quite as standard at other bikes. Let's say you blow up a rear hub. You go to your favorite LBS and no matter what rear spacing your bike requires, they're not going to have it in stock. They'll order it and you wait. OR you call Santana on the phone and they put one in the mail for you that day. Other manufacturers have their idiosyncrasies as well. You just have to put up with them.

    When buying a tandem, listen VERY carefully to your stoker's opinion. If you decide to buy a bike that she's not comfortable with, let's face it, she's not going to ride it and you've wasted your money. Like a single bike, every different model from every manufacturer feels different. That's why we try so many bikes out when we buy our singles. Same with tandems. And be aware that just because you like Brand A's single bikes, it doesn't mean that you'll like their tandems. So don't be in love with a brand before you buy. Try several and have a great time!

  18. #18
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,020
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    In the Phoenix area, check out one of the Landis owned bike shops or the Tempe bkle shop, they've been known to handle a few tandems.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    103
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    +1 to everyone

    FWIW:
    The Santana could be a good way to decide if tandeming is for you and your wife. Should you decide tandeming isn't for you the loss if any on resale should be neglible. One of our local shops owns and loans an older Santana Arriva (downtube shifters & a double). Over the years four or five local couples borrowed it for a few months and now own tandems. I know of 3 couples that bought tandems instead of borrowing and the tandems have either been sold or are gathering dust. I loaned my Comotion to a local "fast" couple. They didn't make it out of the neighborhood before his wife decided she hated it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •