Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35
  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    49
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    New and starting OOP

    We just bought our first tandem, and with my wife and I both being avid cyclists we ended up with a supremo. We got the bike last night and are starting off OOP, as that seems it will fit our riding best. HOWEVER, getting started was, needless to say, nearly a train wreck. I've read Bill's advice, but can't quite seem to get the bike to start without some serious weaving. We're gonna keep at it, but any help you guys can provide (::cough:: zonatandem & TG::cough: would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
    -Jason and Jenna

  2. #2
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,154
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    If you're using Bill McCready's "Proper Method" and still weaving there are three things that come immediately to mind. No; make that four:

    1. Make sure you're in a fairly low gear that's easy to pedal (e.g., 42 x 23 or 53/4 x 27)
    2. Once you've got:
    (a) your stoker mounted and clipped-in, and
    (b) you've got yourself poised to launch with your preferred foot sitting on your crank in the forward position,
    (c) you'll want to coordinate your launch by calling out, "Ready... on three: one, two, three" (or words to that affect) at which point,
    (d) your stoker should begin applying moderate power to her pedals as you
    (e) apply power to your pedal and while pushing off with your down leg and mounting your saddle.
    3. At least for now, do not immediately attempt to clip in your down foot as you would on your single bike... let the tandem gain some momentum before you break the cadence and shift your attention to clip in.
    4. Recognize that, like all things, your confidence and stability during starts and stops will improve with practice and familiarity.

    The key is looking at the entire start and stop movements as a continuous flow of motion where both you and your stoker work to minimize any excess body movements that could unsettle the tandem's steering.

    For example, if your stoker is nervous and trying to look around you, then she's unintentionally steering the tandem from the backseat which requires counter-steering inputs from you and in combination you end up with a wobbly path. Again, to minimize this during starts and stops you'll both need to become more relaxed with your weight centered on the tandem during your launches and landings and most of this should come to you with practice.

    The teams that always struggle simply never master the finesse needed to have that smooth and relaxed start... or, don't pay attention to things like gear selection and technique.

    Finally, and don't take this the wrong way, starting off in-phase would probably have been a bit easier at least for the first few rides, if only because it puts you and your stoker in-sync with regard to the natural side-to-side bike sway that comes during pedalling. Out-of-Phase simply adds a little complexity to the learning process. Once you have the starts and stops mastered -- at least in terms of timing and stability -- you cold then shift over to OOP, at which point you would only be sorting out the differences associated with being on different power strokes instead of dealing with everything else needed to master your start/stop techniques.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    49
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I appreciate the help. I think part of the problem was me letting her power the start, which caused me to not quite have the balance right.

    On a second note, We'd like to thank you, TG, on behalf of lurkers like us everywhere, for all the useful information you've put up here and on your site over the years. Knowingly (and willingly) or not, you really helped us figure out what tandem to get, how to go about the serach process, and how to deal with (successfully lie to myself) the sticker shock.

  4. #4
    Senior Member WebsterBikeMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Just outside Kitchener, Ontario
    My Bikes
    Nishiki Continental, Bilenky custom travel tinker, home built winter bike based on Nashbar cross frrame
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You will find your own refinements, but our refinements to this are:

    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    (b) you've got yourself poised to launch with your preferred foot sitting on your crank in the forward position,
    Meaning about 5-10 degrees forward of the highest position
    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    (c) you'll want to coordinate your launch by calling out, "Ready... on three: one, two, three" (or words to that affect) at which point,
    (d) your stoker should begin applying moderate power to her pedals as you
    (e) apply power to your pedal and while pushing off with your down leg and mounting your saddle.[/INDENT]
    We found that one or two full strokes before sitting down actually works better. And if you aren't trying to get yourself onto the saddle while your only support is your hands and the one foot that is rapidly falling, you are less likely to get your crotch caught on the nose of the saddle.

    Oh, and it takes a little practice to learn what gear you want to be in. Not too hard, obviously, but not so easy that the foot that starts on the pedal reaches the bottom of the stroke too quickly.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    841
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by WebsterBikeMan View Post
    You will find your own refinements, but our refinements to this are:


    Meaning about 5-10 degrees forward of the highest position

    .
    For us is more like 20-40 degrees

  6. #6
    Oldie, just not here! Onegun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Shady Hills, Fl.
    My Bikes
    2005 Trek T2000 tandem, 2003 Burly Tosa Tandem, 6 singles including 2 fixies
    Posts
    982
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by WebsterBikeMan View Post
    We found that one or two full strokes before sitting down actually works better.
    Adding the caveat that you wear mountain bike shoes. If you're wearing slick-soled road shoes it's never a "good" idea to stand without being clipped in .. we all do it occasionally and, (for the most part), get away with it. But it still isn't a good idea.
    BICYCLE - [bahy-si-kuhl] - Noun :> A medical device used to correct the common geriatric condition of OFS, (Old, Fat & Slow), in a manner that does not induce brain-decaying boredom like walking or running.

    2005 Trek T2000 Tandem, 2003 Burley Tosa Tandem, Pacific Dualie beater tandem, and 6 singles including 2 fixies.

    TampaBayCycling.com - A LOCAL Cycling Forum
    The Florida Panthers Tandem Club

  7. #7
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,154
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Back in July of 2005, Tom Hudgins and his wife Deb had their daughter Carly shoot a video of them demonstrating "The Proper Method". They first wrote about this on Tandem@Hobbes where you'll find a plethora of feedback from readers.



    It did a very good job of capturing the basic process, less any customizations. For example, I mount road bikes track bike style by swinging my right leg up and over the handlebars and I typically start and stop with my right leg in the down position and left foot on pedal. I always immediately move to the saddle with the first downstroke of my left foot.

    Frankly, once you have the basic concept down everyting else tends to be a matter of personal preference or learned habits. Also being off-road tandem riders, we do all kinds of improvising when we have to start and stop on technical terrain which has actually served us quite well when faced with unsual on-road situations, e.g., off-camber roads, etc.

  8. #8
    Senior Member WebsterBikeMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Just outside Kitchener, Ontario
    My Bikes
    Nishiki Continental, Bilenky custom travel tinker, home built winter bike based on Nashbar cross frrame
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
    Adding the caveat that you wear mountain bike shoes.
    Right. I forgot that some folks ride road shoes on a tandem. I have a strong preference for something less slippery when I'm going to be holding the bike - and stoker - up at stops.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    49
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks for all the help. We figured out what I (not we, stoker's never wrong) was doing wrong, and we got in a great 30+ mile first ride. These things are a blast

  10. #10
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    7,154
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Oosbahnd&Weefay View Post
    Thanks for all the help. We figured out what I (not we, stoker's never wrong) was doing wrong, and we got in a great 30+ mile first ride. These things are a blast
    Excellent! And, thanks for the kind words: I'm humbled.

  11. #11
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    ariZona carbon fiber tandem & single
    Posts
    10,042
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Only additional advise from us:
    Relax! Don't have a death grip on the bars . . . Enjoy the ride TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    49
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So, with that knocked out, I'll hijack my own thread and ask another question: I actually got my hands on a flight deck computer before the tandem came (really cheap online) not realizing that the new ultegra (6900?) does not support flight deck anymore(shimano told our dealer it wasn't just a question of doing a new harness, that there simply wasn't an option).

    1) can anyone confirm that? it seems very odd, and sometimes customer support is more clueless than seems reasonable
    2) can you guys recommend a good sub $100 computer? We're using cateye VECTRA wireless ones on the singles, but I REALLY want average speed and trip time, which they lack.

  13. #13
    Senior Member foamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Land of Pleasant Living
    My Bikes
    Trek 630 Jamis Quest Bilenky Tourlite and various others
    Posts
    768
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've got a flight deck that came on the machine when I bought it. I can't get it to turn on for anything. New batteries, inspected contacts, etc. but no go. I'm going back to a Cateye Astral or Strada Cadence, but they're both wired computers, which I prefer. They're both around $50 bucks or so.

    Hmmm, thinking about it... would they have to be mounted on the stoker stem to accommodate the wired cadence? I'm gonna have to look at that.
    Last edited by foamy; 04-02-10 at 08:37 AM. Reason: second thought
    None.

  14. #14
    Ride it like you stole it WheresWaldo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Union County, NC
    My Bikes
    2013 Cannondale EVO Ultegra Di2, Pedal Force Aeroblade, Rue Tandem
    Posts
    4,231
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    We used to use TPM but we are in-phase riders so we switched to Captain/Stoker one leg down and clip in at the same time once rolling. For OOP I would suggest that this method should be renamed "The Only Method" as I can't image how any other would work.
    "Never use your face as a brake pad" - Jake Watson

  15. #15
    Ride it like you stole it WheresWaldo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Union County, NC
    My Bikes
    2013 Cannondale EVO Ultegra Di2, Pedal Force Aeroblade, Rue Tandem
    Posts
    4,231
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Oosbahnd&Weefay View Post
    So, with that knocked out, I'll hijack my own thread and ask another question: I actually got my hands on a flight deck computer before the tandem came (really cheap online) not realizing that the new ultegra (6900?) does not support flight deck anymore(shimano told our dealer it wasn't just a question of doing a new harness, that there simply wasn't an option).

    1) can anyone confirm that? it seems very odd, and sometimes customer support is more clueless than seems reasonable
    2) can you guys recommend a good sub $100 computer? We're using cateye VECTRA wireless ones on the singles, but I REALLY want average speed and trip time, which they lack.
    Difference with new 6900 is that the smaller size levers (marginally) and the new internal cable routing makes less room for the harness which replaced a portion of the older levers.

    As far as sub $100 cyclocomputers go, sorry can't help you as we use Garmin Edges on singles and tandem.
    "Never use your face as a brake pad" - Jake Watson

  16. #16
    Senior Member WebsterBikeMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Just outside Kitchener, Ontario
    My Bikes
    Nishiki Continental, Bilenky custom travel tinker, home built winter bike based on Nashbar cross frrame
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by WheresWaldo View Post
    We used to use TPM but we are in-phase riders so we switched to Captain/Stoker one leg down and clip in at the same time once rolling. For OOP I would suggest that this method should be renamed "The Only Method" as I can't image how any other would work.
    Are you saying "TPM should be renamed TOM" in the case of OOP, or just the reverse? I'm not totally clear on the antecedent for "this method". My first reading would be that you're saying both with one leg down (for lack of an official name) should be the only method for OOP, but we find TPM works just fine OOP.

  17. #17
    Senior Member WebsterBikeMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Just outside Kitchener, Ontario
    My Bikes
    Nishiki Continental, Bilenky custom travel tinker, home built winter bike based on Nashbar cross frrame
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Unless you rig your own extension wiring or put in an outrigger to put the sensor for the captain's crank arm within range of the magnet, the answer is yes. You get the choice of

    a) cadence for the stoker only, or
    b) cadence for both with a long range wireless transmit/receive (a few exist, but I don't have it)
    c) a non-stock solution that you build yourself.

  18. #18
    Ride it like you stole it WheresWaldo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Union County, NC
    My Bikes
    2013 Cannondale EVO Ultegra Di2, Pedal Force Aeroblade, Rue Tandem
    Posts
    4,231
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by WebsterBikeMan View Post
    Are you saying "TPM should be renamed TOM" in the case of OOP, or just the reverse? I'm not totally clear on the antecedent for "this method". My first reading would be that you're saying both with one leg down (for lack of an official name) should be the only method for OOP, but we find TPM works just fine OOP.
    There is only one subject in my comment, that is 'TPM.' This method in sentence two still refers to the same subject. I really thought that was clear and don't want a grammar lesson .
    What I am saying is that for OOP TPM should be renamed TOM as I can't see an easy way to not start with the Stoker completely clipped in if you use an OOP crank setup.
    "Never use your face as a brake pad" - Jake Watson

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    78
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by foamy View Post
    Hmmm, thinking about it... would they have to be mounted on the stoker stem to accommodate the wired cadence? I'm gonna have to look at that.
    We have the Cateye Astral computers on booth our tandems. We have long tandem length cables that Cateye made at one time. They are no longer made. However the last I knew Mel at Tandems East had some in stock.

  20. #20
    Senior Member WebsterBikeMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Just outside Kitchener, Ontario
    My Bikes
    Nishiki Continental, Bilenky custom travel tinker, home built winter bike based on Nashbar cross frrame
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by WheresWaldo View Post
    There is only one subject in my comment, that is 'TPM.' This method in sentence two still refers to the same subject. I really thought that was clear and don't want a grammar lesson .
    What I am saying is that for OOP TPM should be renamed TOM as I can't see an easy way to not start with the Stoker completely clipped in if you use an OOP crank setup.
    Look, I wasn't trying to give a grammar lesson. But since you put it that way, the usual assumption is that the antecedent is the most recent noun or noun phrase. And in this case you had just described the alternative to "TPM" - although you didn't specifically use the word "method", it sure looks like a method. So I was truly left with reading it as either TPM is impossible for out-of-phase or assuming you didn't really mean what it looked like you were saying. Given that I was unsure, I didn't want to leave someone less familiar with tandeming to get the wrong impression. Now I suppose someone can chime in that they use the "one foot down each" method, and by somehow having the cranks in just the right position make it work with OOP.

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    49
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    thread officially hijacked.

  22. #22
    Ride it like you stole it WheresWaldo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Union County, NC
    My Bikes
    2013 Cannondale EVO Ultegra Di2, Pedal Force Aeroblade, Rue Tandem
    Posts
    4,231
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by WebsterBikeMan View Post
    Look, I wasn't trying to give a grammar lesson. But since you put it that way, the usual assumption is that the antecedent is the most recent noun or noun phrase. And in this case you had just described the alternative to "TPM" - although you didn't specifically use the word "method", it sure looks like a method. So I was truly left with reading it as either TPM is impossible for out-of-phase or assuming you didn't really mean what it looked like you were saying. Given that I was unsure, I didn't want to leave someone less familiar with tandeming to get the wrong impression. Now I suppose someone can chime in that they use the "one foot down each" method, and by somehow having the cranks in just the right position make it work with OOP.
    Thank you.

    I still can't see how you could start out steady if you are OOP and both have a foot down, maybe incredible balance!
    "Never use your face as a brake pad" - Jake Watson

  23. #23
    Ride it like you stole it WheresWaldo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Union County, NC
    My Bikes
    2013 Cannondale EVO Ultegra Di2, Pedal Force Aeroblade, Rue Tandem
    Posts
    4,231
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Oosbahnd&Weefay View Post
    thread officially hijacked.
    My fault.

    Just our experience, when we started riding tandems we used 'The Proper Method' and that was OK. On 50+ mile rides, near the end when we were both tired it became harder to steady the tandem with Bittersweet clipped in. That was when we decided that one foot down was 'The Real Proper Method' and haven't looked back. Please note that we ride in-phase, I am having trouble picturing how we would do one foot down if we rode out-of-phase.
    "Never use your face as a brake pad" - Jake Watson

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    49
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    we've got a method that seems to work (not perfect yet) and it's pretty much exactly TPM. only deviance (I think) is she gives me the pedal at the bottom of the stroke to let me clip in, then quickly rotates it up to starting position (about 2 o'clock) and we go as soon as it's there. For a couple with exactly 2 days and 90 miles of tandem experience, I'm pretty happy with it.

  25. #25
    No Pain, No Pizza Thigh Master's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Above Jamestown, CO
    My Bikes
    '99 Burley Duet, '10 Velo Vie Vitesse 300R, '10 Bianchi Vigorelli, '94 Trek 2120
    Posts
    215
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I MISS OUT-OF-PHASE!!! We are IP now, Stoker's preference, bit when we were OOP we did the same take off method as with our IP, stoker clipped in and responsible for the initial take off.
    '10 Velo Vie Vitesse 300R
    '10 Bianchi Vigorelli
    '97 Burley Duet
    '94 Trek 2120
    "If you got passed in James Canyon by a big guy with a huge, orange courier bag, that was me. If you passed a big guy with a huge, orange courier bag, that was my brother."

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •