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  1. #1
    No bonking Thigh Master's Avatar
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    Tire pressure vs elevation

    How much does tire pressure increase with an elevation increase of 5,000'?
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    PMK
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    About 2.5 PSI.

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  3. #3
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    On the practical side....we drive up and down between 5000 ft and near sea level on a regular basis to ride and never think of or notice any impact on tire pressures...

  4. #4
    No bonking Thigh Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    About 2.5 PSI.

    PK
    Thanks so much! How does one figure that out?
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  5. #5
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    Think about this ----- pressure inside a sealed container (the tire) won't change due to elevation........

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Think about this ----- pressure inside a sealed container (the tire) won't change due to elevation........
    That's not true, or not at least in the sense the OP means.
    The absolute pressure remains the same, but NOBODY measures absolute pressure, you measure gauge, or relative, pressure. That's the pressure as referenced to the Pa (atmospheric pressure). If you're terribly concerned, there are tables known as "standard atmospheric tables" which will show average pressure and density and temperature at altitudes. The difference in pressure at these altitudes is the difference that you'll observe.

    -an Aeronautical and Astronautical engineer

  7. #7
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    "The absolute pressure remains the same,"

    I rest my case....

    Taking temp out of the equation, the pressure inside a sealed, container, under pressure - remains the same......

    Who cares what the outside atmospheric is, as long as the container is sufficient to contain the internal pressure.

    And, the density of the contained air is the same.

    The gauge may read differently, because of the different atmospheric pressure; but, the pressure inside the tire won't change.
    Last edited by Wanderer; 04-03-10 at 12:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    "The absolute pressure remains the same,"

    I rest my case....

    Taking temp out of the equation, the pressure inside a sealed, container, under pressure - remains the same......

    Who cares what the outside atmospheric is, as long as the container is sufficient to contain the internal pressure.

    And, the density of the contained air is the same.

    The gauge may read differently, because of the different atmospheric pressure; but, the pressure inside the tire won't change.
    A bicycle tire is sealed, but not a rigid container, hence the 2.5 psia decrease on the outside of the tire, results in the air inside the tire expanding the tire a bit....just the same amount as if you stayed at the same place where the tire was first inflated, and then the tire pressure was increased by 2.5 psia. The thus the volume of the tire increase at altitude, hence the density as in lb/ft^3 decreases slightly.

    Think about weather ballons that take instuments up to over 50,000 feet. When they are launched they are only partially filled, because at the very high alititudes and low pressures, the ballon is now completed filled due the low pressures on the outside of the ballon.

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    It is the gauge pressure that counts in this situation, not absolute. If you were to pump your tyre up to 100psi (gauge) and the put the wheel in a pressure vessel set at 100 psi, what was a "hard" tyre will become flat and have zero load carrying capacity.

  10. #10
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    I would hazard a guess, that the volumes we are talking about, and the minute atmospheric changes, have very little, if any, effect on the tire. And, that dealing in these pressures (internal and external) the tire is plenty rigid enough to withstand the changes, without expanding.

    I would also hazard an opinion, that normal atmospheric (barometric) changes at any same level, have just about, if not more, than the same effect.

    I think we are trying to pick the proverbial fly specks out of the pepper ----- it just ain't worth it, and you probably won't even taste it.........

    The barometer in Albuquerque, about 5200 ft, is 29.93 Hg, right now, while the barometer in North Aurora, about 600 feet, is 29.81, with almost the same weather conditions. The barometer in Frisco Colorado, at about 9,000 ft, is 29.79, although it is quite a bit colder there.... None of the above will have any significant difference in tire pressure (discounting any temp differences.)

    The temperatures, at much different altitudes, however, will have a much bigger effect, as the trapped air expands and contracts with big changes. If I remember correctly, it will be about a pound for every 10 degrees.....
    Last edited by Wanderer; 04-03-10 at 02:29 PM.

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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  11. #11
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
    It is the gauge pressure that counts in this situation, not absolute. If you were to pump your tyre up to 100psi (gauge) and the put the wheel in a pressure vessel set at 100 psi, what was a "hard" tyre will become flat and have zero load carrying capacity.
    While I agree with you in theory - I know of nowhere on earth that has an atmospheric pressure anywhere close to 100 PSI........ LOL

    We are talking the difference in pressure of 14.4#, and 14.65# here.... You can blow thru a straw at higher pressure differences here.... LOL

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    "The absolute pressure remains the same,"

    I rest my case....

    Taking temp out of the equation, the pressure inside a sealed, container, under pressure - remains the same......

    Who cares what the outside atmospheric is, as long as the container is sufficient to contain the internal pressure.

    And, the density of the contained air is the same.

    The gauge may read differently, because of the different atmospheric pressure; but, the pressure inside the tire won't change.
    The pressure ratings on tires are in gauge, and the gauge pressure determines: Traction patch size, side load deflection, pressure on the 'hooked' portion of the rim, as well as the bead, total available traction, rolling resistance, etc. Everything you care about in tire inflation (all those arguments people have over proper tire pressure) is dictated by gauge and gauge alone. You never notice absolute pressure.

    Standard sea-level atmosphere is 15 PSI. Take your road bike into space, and assuming you had inflated your tires to 120 PSI with your floor pump, you'd notice them at 135 PSI. That would be significant. a tire will become noticeably 'more inflated' at higher altitudes. The difference is more important on mtn bikes where pressures are in the 60 PSI range, and a 5 PSI change is significant.

    The altitude pressure change is all independent of temperature. It gets important when you: inflate your tires to the recommended max at low alt., get on the bike, and ride in the hills (adding heat to the tires via braking) sure the altitude is only 2-5 PSI in increase, but the combined effects could (not terribly likely) cause a bead to slip. More likely, you'd just have the tube fail (still not all that likely).

  13. #13
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    "1 atm = 101.325 kPa is the Normal Atmospheric Pressure at Sea Level.
    1 atm = 760 mm mercury = 760 torr = 101 325 pascals = 29.9246899 inches of mercury = 14.6959488 pounds per square inch."

    See what miniscule variations we are talking about here? With "here and now" even more slight variations, between 600 - 9000 feet.

    It's not worth even considering......................

    Who, among us, has a 0-100# gauge calibrated within even 1#, let alone 1/4 pound????

    p.s. Absolute pressure is what happens to be holding us upright..... when on two wheels - guage pressure is just a way of measuring it.

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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    but atmospheric pressure resists it. To give an example, a tire with a hole in it is still at ~15 psi, but it won't hold you up. it's the difference between internal and external, i.e. gauge. Regardless, I don't want to sound hostile, so I'm not going to keep harping on it.

  15. #15
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    And, I'm not taking it as hostile - but, with no hole, it is the absolute pressure within the tire, that is resisting the miniscule 14# of atmospheric pressure, that is holding us up.

    Anything could be used as a gauge, even a pile of bricks - just remove one to determine the difference in flex of the contact patch.

    I guess my whole point is - that we are talking about a difference that is so small, it's not worth considering. Especially, considering that, even at drastic elevation changes, the atmospheric pressure can be the same, or even "upside down."

    Temperature, during a single day, has more of an effect, than elevation changes, and we don't worry about that.

    I'd be more concerned that my tire had a small shard in the rubber, working it's way inward...... LOL

    Check your tires, with a guage, every day, and squeeze them every so often, (when stopped,) to verify that they continue to hold air, and, are still hard.

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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  16. #16
    Senior Member Shimagnolo's Avatar
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    So what happens when you seal empty water bottles, then descend 7000'?

    http://www.dim.com/~ryoder/MtEvans/IMGP0086.jpg

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    lol. awesome photo. Btw, since maybe it isn't clear, whenI say gauge pressure, I don't mean the pressure a gauge reads. Gauge pressure is a definition Pg=P-Pa

  18. #18
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    I'd bet that the temp change from 30F, to 80F, had more effect than the elevation change. It's usually pretty cold on top of Mt Evans.......

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    going from cold to warm would inflate, not deflate them. Ironically this shows that teh altitude greatly outplayed the temp in that case.

  20. #20
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oosbahnd&Weefay View Post
    lol. awesome photo. Btw, since maybe it isn't clear, whenI say gauge pressure, I don't mean the pressure a gauge reads. Gauge pressure is a definition Pg=P-Pa
    I understand completely! I come from a background in the Natural Gas Industry - back when I had to work for a living.... many people don't realize that they have 14# of pressure in their tire, even when it's flat.............

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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  21. #21
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    29.66 is the barometric pressure on Mt Evans, right now - Denver is 29.67.....

    Fly specks in pepper -------

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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  22. #22
    Senior Member Shimagnolo's Avatar
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    The temperature was ~50F when I left Idaho Springs at dawn.
    It was ~50F when I reached the summit around noon.
    Idaho Springs was ~80 when I returned at 1pm.
    I had no idea that was happening to the bottles until I was about to lift the bike onto the car rack.
    I'm surprised they didn't fly out considering they were empty and I was doing 30-45mph for an hour on the descent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

    The barometer in Albuquerque, about 5200 ft, is 29.93 Hg, right now, while the barometer in North Aurora, about 600 feet, is 29.81, with almost the same weather conditions. The barometer in Frisco Colorado, at about 9,000 ft, is 29.79, although it is quite a bit colder there.... None of the above will have any significant difference in tire pressure (discounting any temp differences.)
    Not at all surprising that the barometric pressures reported by the weather service show essentially no variation with altitude since these reports are artificially adjusted to indicate not the actual pressure at each location, but rather what the pressure would be if each town were at sea level. That's done so the reported barometric pressures are all comparable and people are used to seeing pressures above 30" Hg on nice days and to expect a storm if it starts dropping down toward 29" Hg.

    But take an actual glass tube filled with mercury and measure the column height in Alburquerque and you'll find that it *never* gets anywhere close to 29.93".

    And yes, I think we're all agreed that the small changes in effective bike tire inflation pressures with altitude are insignificant - that was clear from the initial (and correct) response of about 2.5 psi for going from sea level to 5000'. You're the one who chose to argue with that response.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thigh Master View Post
    Thanks so much! How does one figure that out?
    Standard atmosphere tables. For instance: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/st...ere-d_604.html

  25. #25
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    And, to think that I thought we were talking about the pressure inside the tire..... silly me!

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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