scottaharper

Hello,

I will be upgrading from a Santana Sovereign tandem to a custom S&S Erickson this winter, and am in the midst obsessing over components. My concern for this week is the drivetrain. The things that I know are:

* I am going to have Campagnolo Carbon Ergo shift levers
* I am a Campagnolo fan and would prefer to use Campy derailleurs
* We are a 350lbs team, who are fairly fit and have no plans to do loaded touring
* We live in northern California, so we do a fair bit of hill climbing
* We like to go fast

My current idea is to go 10-speed with a Wheel Manufacturer 11-27 cassette, and Campagnolo triple derailleurs. This would require a 10-speed chain (which I am a little nervous about on a tandem). I keep changing my mind on the crank between the FSA carbon and the TA Zephyr with 50 x 38/39 x 26 chainrings. This would give us gearing roughly equal to our existing 8-speed tandem's 52x44x30 and 12x32.

My questions are:

1) Is going 10-speed a bad idea, seems like everyone is going 9-speed?
2) Am I going to regret not getting a higher top gear?
3) Am I going to regret not getting a lower granny gear?
4) Any suggestions to improve performance, shifting speed, beauty, etc. would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott Harper

TandemGeek

Let me calibrate you. We have a pair of Erickson tandems; a '98 fillet-brazed Signature and an '02 Custom S&S. Both of these tandems are set up with Campy Chorus 9 speed Ergos, Campy Racing T front derailleurs, Campy Record long-cage rear derailleurs, Shimano-compatible rear hubs with Shimano 9 speed cassettes, and daVinci cranks. Chain rings are 54/44/30 and we run a 12x27t cassette as our default cassette with 12x25t for dead-flat rides and 11x32t in the mountains.

1) Is going 10-speed a bad idea, seems like everyone is going 9-speed?

It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it could limit your flexibility or leave you scrambling for a cassette if you have a problem while on tour. If you plan ahead and keep a spare packed in your luggage it's not a big deal. Worst-case scenario, there's a trick that will allow you to use a Shimano XTR or Ultegra Triple RD and a stock Shimano 9 speed cassette with Campy 10 speed shifters to get by in a pinch. As for durability, if you and yours ride with a high cadence, don't ride with the chain crossed-up big-big a lot (i.e., 52x28 or 52x32) and aren't ones to get caught shifting late and under load on climbs, I don't think the 10 speed will be any more of a problem than 9 speed. However, if you find that you wait until you're grinding away at 60 rpm before shifting into a shorter cog or the granny ring, or if you run the chain all the way up the cassette to the 32t cog before going to the middle ring, you may find yourself breaking a chain link apart every now and again. You can mitigate some of the chain durability issues by using a Shimano 9 speed chain instead of a 10 speed chain (yes, they're narrow enough) with a reuseable "SuperLink II" chain connector instead of Shimano's one-time use pins.

2) Am I going to regret not getting a higher top gear?

If you run the set-up that you're suggesting, e.g., 50/39/26 with an 11x27 cassette you'll have a higher top end (121.6") than you do with the 52/44/30 and 12x32 (116"). We normally run a 54/44/30 with a 12x27 cassette which yields about the same 120" top end. For steep mountainous terrain, I swap out the 12x27t for an 11x32t. It bumps up the top end to 131", but the extra cog is really not all that useful for us as we can get pretty aero and coast down hills faster than we can pedaling at speeds above 40.

3) Am I going to regret not getting a lower granny gear?

26 x 27t will get you about 25.8" which is is pretty low and very close to what you have right now with your 30x32 @ 25.1". The bigger issue may be chain drag on your front derailleur and/or interference from the middle chainring in the lower 1/2 of the cassette while in the 26t granny. Of course, this isn't unique to your set-up, but the 26t might make it a little more obvious.

4) Any suggestions to improve performance, shifting speed, beauty, etc. would be appreciated

What you proposed for gearing is not conventional, but it's also not all that far out either. However, I have alway been very happy with the performance and the flexibility that our Campy/Shimano configurations give us with regard to cassette options and the lower cost of cassettes vs what you'll find with 10 speed equipment. My wife and I both have Campy 10spd groups on our personal bikes with compact drives (hers is a triple 50/40/30 and mines a 50/36 double) and the extra cog is pretty cool. However, I don't ever feel as though I miss it on the tandem when it's set up with the smaller cassettes. However, the 11x32t could certainly benefit from one more cog or might be better off as a 12x32 -- that 24t to 28t jump is awful.

Perhaps your biggest challenge will be pushing back on Glenn who will most likely encourage you to use Campy shifters and a Shimano XTR rear derailleur with a "Shimagnolo" adapter. Glenn is very fond of this solution and we have several friends who have Ericksons with this type of hybrid solution. A good friend, ace wrench, and perhaps our top-dog tandem team's captain runs the same Campy configuration that we do on their Litespeed tandem and we jokingly refer to the adapter as the "Shimangler" noting that it has nothing to do with how it works since it does work quite well: it's the kluggy nature of the set-up that makes us wince.

As for other tips... Hopefully you've taken an Erickson or at least a Co-Motion for a test ride... if not, it will take a few rides to get comfortable with the Erickson's aggressive steering geometry and longer wheelbase while starting, stopping, and climbing. In fact, it will feel downright squirrelly. However, the first time you lean it through a fast corner or take it through some curves above 20 mph you'll get a grin that will be hard to remove and the faster you go the more you'll grin.... kinda like the grin your stoker will have from enjoying all that extra room in the back. From then on, the handling qwerks at slow speeds will be assimilated into the riding experience.

Keep us posted on your spec process... By the way, what did Glenn quote as the delivery date?

scottaharper

Mark,

Thanks for the all the useful information. I have spent quite a bit time at your site admiring your tandems. My admiration for them is one of the reasons that I am getting an Erickson.

On your tandems, you are using Campy shifters/rear derailleurs with a Shimano 9-speed cassette. What tricks did you use to make that combination work? Is that the way that you recieved them from Glenn? If so, did you have trouble convincing Glenn to go with that combo?

I have not ridden an Erickson or a CoMotion, but I have done enough research to feel confident that am going to enjoy the ride. I have a lot of experience with fast handling single bikes, and now have enough experience as a tandem captain to be sure that this is the right answer for me and my stoker. Getting a faster handling tandem was one of the motivations for the upgrade.

I do not have a commitment from Glenn on delivery of our tandem. I visited him following the Northwest tandem rally, and gave him a small deposit to hold a place in his queue when he gets back from Europe and transforms from Glenn the tour leader to Glenn the bike builder. I have some experience working with small, custom frame builders, so I know that artistry like this happens at its own pace and am willing to be patient.

Thanks,
Scott

TandemGeek

I'm humbled and pleased that we were able to be a source of information and support for your decision. No doubt about it, an Erickson is well worth the wait and Glenn is a facinating individual and one of the few artisians in a business rich with engineers, designers, machinists, and craftsman.

As for the set up on our Ericksons as well as my personal bikes, there really isn't any trick to it. It's a design specification loophole where the performance margins for Shimano's cassette spacing and Campy's rear derailleur movement are 'close enough' to allow the dissimilar brands to work with each other. It takes a few extra minutes to dial-in the shifting given that you're playing in the specification margins, but it works quite well. Similar to using Shimano's 9 speed chains on Campy 10 speed cassettes, keeping the chain and the other drivetrain components clean will go a long way towards keeping the system and shifting performance crisp. You will occasionally get a little chain noise due to cable stretch but a little finger or thumb pressure on a shift lever will provide that .5mm of movement needed to silence the chain. Also, as the rear derailleur's Ergo shifter shift disc begin to wear-out (usually at ~10,000 - 12,000 miles for teams who do a moderate amount of shifting), the amount of "play" in the cable movement will increase to a point where there are at least two chain positions where a shifter "nudge" will always be required: this is a good indication that the shift disc needs to be replaced (about $45 for the disc and springs). Once the new disc is installed in the old lever, it will feel and perform like new and thus, the break-in and wear-out cycle begins again.

Yes, with great perseverence, I was able to get Glenn to deliver our tandem with the mixed-bag of components. The '98 came with a Racing-T RD which had the longest cage that Campy offered at the time (what is now called a medium length). We used a Shimano 11x30t 8 speed cassette as well as the 11x32 9 speed cassette with the Campy Ergo 9 speed levers and 9 speed Racing T RD; both worked just fine, although there was a trick to how you set-up the RD movement when using the 8 speed cassette with the Campy Ergo 9 speed levers such that the 9th "click" was dialed out. The '02 came with Campy Ergo 9 shifters, a new Campy Record 9/10 triple RD (just introduced that year), and a Shimano 9 speed 12x27 cassette. In both cases, Glenn was really quite crafty and equally persistant in trying to sell me on the XTR rear derailleur and the current methods of integrating them with Campy's levers. I would submit my build sheet and spec. Campy, etc... Glenn would call up and then ask what components I decided to go with which would lead to the Campy vs XTR RD debate which I would of course win (I'm stubborn AND anal). A few weeks later the same discussion would be played out again as if there was never a build sheet or previous discussion on components. While part of me believes Glenn just forgot, there is another little voice that says he's quite gifted when it comes to guiding the customer's decisions towards Glenn's thinking. In Glenn's defense, his rationale for recommending the XTR rear derailleur is a sound one in that, it is less technically demanding in terms of set-up and adjustment (non-mechanic tandem owners can get it adjusted even if they are all thumbs), the XTR RD easily works with the Shimano 11x34t "mega range" cassettes that many tandem teams like, and the XTR RD with its strong spring and off-road durability performs as well as and perhaps better than even the Campy Record 9/10 RD under less than ideal conditions (when its not been cleaned or lubed in a while or shifting under load). So, if you are a builder and you're unsure of just how mechanically savvy your customers are, you are prudent to recommend something that has lots of performance margin while demanding very little attention to detail. As for why Glenn felt compelled to persist with me, I believe it's just his nature and in some respects -- at least with me -- something of a sport, noting that we've debated all kinds of goofy things if only for the sheer joy of it.

Again, keep us posted and have that digital camera ready once the machine is delivered.

galen_52657

Santana is selling tandems using 10 speed Campy ergo shifters. They use an aftermarket chain produced by KMC that is 10 speed compatible.

I would think Santana would not sell a product until it has been thoroughly tested, so I would think this chain is a safe bet.

ottodog

Hmmm, this gets me thinking. I've been pondering whether to go with the Campy upgrade on the Supremo. Co-Motion offers it for $225, over the Dura Ace price, on the Supremo. I initially thought it was $1k which I figured was outrageous since you were already paying for Dura Ace, but at $225 it's pretty tempting. Has anyone done, or seen this from Co-Motion? I called and talked to a lady on the phone, she said it includes 10sp Record shifters, derailers, brake calipers, and I think she said a Centaur cassette?? She also said it comes with different wheels, White Ind. hubs?? So I guess you forgo the Rolf Prima Vigor wheels in favor of wheels with White Ind. hubs. I wonder what rims?? I guess I should have had her clarify, but it almost sounded like she was reading it off a sheet.

Mark you have any insight on this??

Sorry if this is OT. All this Campy talk got me thinking. Maybe I should have started a new thread.

Thanks, Chris

Eurastus

We ride a '98 da Vinci JointVenture that came equiped with Campy from the factory. It used 9-speed Chorus brifters with a long-cage Campy Racing Triple rear derailleur. The cassette is an 8-speed XT 11-28 or 11-30 (depending on how steep the ride is...). I use only 8 of the 9 clicks on the brifters, but otherwise it shifts great. Couldn't want any better.

I understand the current JointVenture comes with an Ultegra 9-speed cassette, 12-27. They also have factory options of several different XT or XTR 9-speed. I don't know, however, if they use 9 or 10 speed Chorus brifters. I've got a spare 9-speed 105 12-25 cassette in the junk-box at home. I intend to throw that on the da Vinci one of these evenings and just see how it shifts...

TandemGeek

You might want to call back and ask for Alan and if he's not there ask for Dan or Dwan and get them to clarify the pricing and equipment specs. When I last checked, the Campy 10 speed upgrade was still a bit pricey and I suspect (again, I'm pulling this out of the air by deductive reasoning) they may have come up with a less expensive upgrade package using a conventional wheelset.

Off the top of my head...

Centaur Cassette = a bit heavier and more robust than the Chorus or Record cassettes.

Wheelsets = Not sure what she's talking about. Rolf Prima Vigor Tandem wheelsets are designed with interchangeable cassette body to allow use of either Shimano or Campy splines / cassettes (just like the entire Rolf line). As for the reference to the White Industry hubset, this may be what's at the heart of the $225 upgrade option vs. the $800 price some of us are more familiar with. More specifically, it is quite possible that Co-Motion has put together a more economical Campy 10 speed package based on a conventional wheelset using the White Industry hubset (also Shimano / Campy convertible like the Rolf) and most likely the Velocity Deep-V (or Aerohead) rims. The difference in cost on the wheelset (Rolf vs White Ind) would be about the $575. Co-Motion normally builds it's high performance wheelsets around the Chris King hubs but they are not Campy compatible.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the integrated wheelsets and would be more likely to spec. a conventional hub/rim set-up around a Phil Wood, Chris King or White Ind. hubset with the Deep section rims (Note: We use all of the aforementioned products on our tandems). They're lighter, stronger, just about as Aero and easy to fix in the field and/or get replacement parts for. But, that's just me. The only thing to watch out for with the White Ind. hubs is potential bearing issues. I'm not sure why, but White released a production lot of front hub end caps that were out of spec. which would cause the adjacent sealed bearing to bind in less than 1k miles -- usually something you will notice due to some bearing noise, drag or a "gritty" feeling when you free rotate the wheel while it's lifted off the ground. White will immediately send out a replacement end-cap and new bearings once you report the problem and that seems to fix the problem once and for all. We have also run into some rear hub bearing issues on a friend's tandem. However, the hub was easily fixed with a new set of internals and continues to work just fine after a 1k miles since the repair. In general, I like the White hubs -- simple design and very light -- but they use some really cheap bearings. I'll probably buy a set of replacement bearings from Phil Wood once the original (or replacements in the case of the front hub) begin to get tired and that should remedy this one nit with the White hubs. Mind you, the bearings they use are quite popular and used by several hub makers; however, tandem-duty is really tough on them and a better quality bearing will offer a longer service life. Of course, the better bearings will also cost a lot more ($4/ea vs $18/ea) so net cost savings may be a wash but you'll go a lot longer between service intervals.

scottaharper

According to the Rolf web site, you can get the Primas with a Campy cassette, so you should not have to give up the wheel unless it is just an issue of what CoMotion stocks.

They are probably using the Centaur cassette because it has more loose cogs than the Chorus that uses 6 cogs locked together in pairs compared to 2 for Centaur. I would be interested to know what the range of the cassette was that they were offering.

Thanks for the info,
Scott Harper

ottodog

Thanks for the info, I'll have to give them a call tomorrow. I also sent an email to my LBS, but haven't heard back yet. I really wouldn't be too upset about the wheel change. I seriously considered "downgrading" to the King Velocity wheelset when we ordered. Not that I really consider that to be a downgrade. I'm sure the Rolf's are good wheels, they just seem a little boutiquey, but that's just me.

Mark you don't have an email for anyone at Co-Mo that you can divulge. I'm sure I could probably search for it, just wondering if it's public info.

Thanks,
Chris

TandemGeek

Info@co-motion.com (Pat, Elayne or Alan usually service this)
Dwan@co-motion.com (Dwan Shepard, Founder & Co-Owner)
Dan@co-Motion.com (Dan Vrijmoet, Co-Owner)
Alan@co-Motion.com (Alan Cline, Sales)
Pat@co-motion.com (Pat Waters, Go-to-Guy)

ottodog

Thanks Mark!

Ok now I'm going to ask the loaded question. Oh gosh, here goes...... Shimano or Campy. (sound of footsteps running and hiding). I know, I know this could be debated for years, just like any brand. But I gotta ask, being a not-so brand loyal Shimano user. I've honestly never used Campy, but always have been intrigued by the fanatical brand loyalty. I've been thinking about ordering a Calfee single frame that is to be my first Campy bike, but the tandem might be just the opportunity to do so.

So what I'm asking for opinions of people that have used both, what you prefer, and why.

Maybe it's not that cut n dry. But would certainly like to know why Campy seems to have such a die hard following.

Thanks, Chris

TandemGeek

If I had a need for a couple of application-specific wheelsets, the Rolfs, Shimano/Santana Sweet 16, or Bontrager RaceLite Tandems still wouldn't make the cut. They're just trying to be all things to all people and as usual that means they're basically marginal. Yes, they look cool, but there are time-trial specific wheels that are more aero/faster and component wheel combinations that can be lighter and/or stronger and just about as aero (and these are usually less expensive).

I also don't like the idea that I'd be stuck going back to the same vendor for the life of the wheelset since -- unlike a component wheel where you can mix and match hubs, spokes and rims -- you are forced to replace the hub, spokes and rim with the same OEM hub & rim and even the spokes on a few. Moreover, you can only buy these wheel-specific parts from "approved" sources or the vendor. So, down the road, if the vendor goes belly-up or drops support for a product, you're left scrambling or holding. With component wheels, I can opt to change rim designs or vendors so long as I stick with the same spoke count, I can change lacing patterns and spoke design or vendors to alter the wheels, and I can decide to change my hubs if I so choose.

Now, before being labeled either a troglodyte, retro-grouch, or hypocrite let me fess up to what anyone will have discovered in looking at the bike gallery on our Web site: I have gone through several different sets of integrated wheelsets that I use on my personal bikes: Mavic Heliums, Cosmic Experts, Elites, Ksyriums, Campy Eurus, etc... What I've learned about these products on my personal bikes is what forms the basis for my assessment of their utility on tandems. The bottom line on these wheels is like most things related to bicycle technology that can be summed-up with the following design model from Keith Bontrager: Light - Durable - Cheap / Pick Any Two

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. Everyone needs to decide what's best for them since there's no such thing as "simply the best". I think the Rolf's look positively awesome on tandems and I'd love to have a set for bragging rights... but not necessarily as my only wheelset.

TandemGeek

Thankfully, I have actually taken some time to properly capture my thoughts on this with a Web page:
https://home.att.net/~thetandemlink/stivsergo.html

The top 10 reasons I prefer Ergo to STI is the last article on the page but, in short, I backed into Campagnolo out of necessity not desire. However, once I used the Ergo design I was hooked. Being somewhat anal, I like component groups and as such it only makes sense to me to have Campy derailleurs and brakes to go along with my Campy shifters, thus my conversion was nearly complete. Headset, cranks, and hubs end up being a bit eclectic because Campy doesn't make tandem-specific versions, thus Chris King, daVinci, and Phil Wood were given the nod as "the best" for my tandem needs, including aesthetics. Of couse, once I adopted Campy on the tandem it set the stage for my 1/2 bike conversion. Thus, today, our road bike livery is flush with Campy because I just happen to find Ergo more to my liking.

What's not mentioned is perhaps part of that "die-hard following" and in many cases it's probably a combination of things:

- little bit of vanity,
- the history and tradition associated with Tullio Campagnolo and his contributions to cycling,
- the old-world / traditional approach to design where function sometimes follows form,
- an appreciation for that special something (sex appeal) that you find in Italian design and engineering e.g., Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Alfa Romero, Bugatti, MV Agusta, Aprilla, Ducati....

Shimano's history is also quite rich, but it's heritage has a domestic / utilitarian foundation in cycling, not a racing pedigree in the traditional "romantic" European tradition. While there is probably no real question in anyone's mind that Shimano's components are certainly the most well-engineered, the degree of perfection that has been achived and some of the "innovations" have taken the sex-appeal and some of the romantic character out of cycling.

Case in point: Which of the following word groups instills a sence of cycling as an art or history...

A. Trek / Shimano / Bontrager / OCLV
B. Colnago / Campagnolo / Cinelli / Columbus
C. Cannondale / Shimano / Coda / 6061-T6
D. DeRosa / Campagnolo / 3TTT / Dedacciai

So, at least for me, I represent a Campy user who chooses Campy because it just works better for me. That it happens to have all that sex appeal going for it is nice, but it's not something I longed for.

ottodog

Well between my LBS, and Alan we figured out the mystery of the Campy upgrade. Well sort of.. Alan wasn't sure where Elayne came up with the price she quoted. She may have been reading an old price sheet, as the White hubs aren't even an option anymore. The price is $830. You receive Record 10 shifters, brakes, derailers, Centaur cassette, and Rolf Prima Vigor Campy wheels. Needless to say, I went for it. The down side is that our bike, that came out of paint today, will be delayed a week because of the upgrade. Oh, well. I'm sure it will be worth it.

Chris

galen_52657

I can only relate my limited experience. I tested a Trek tandem with low spoke-count wheels (Rolfs?). My impression: way to soft, scary soft. Hit the brakes and slow down soft. Team weight was about 380 lbs.

However, the Ksyrium Elites on my single are awesome!

ottodog

Good Point. Now that we've decided to go the Campy route, I have somewhat decided to build a 2nd wheelset, but I'm having trouble finding Campy compatible hubs. Is there anyplace online the sells a 145mm Campy compatible tandem hub? I know the White Industries website shows they make one, but I've yet to find it. Are there any other manufacturers making one?

Please point me in the right direction

Thanks, Chris

TandemGeek

I believe White Industries and DT-Hugi are probably the only two hub producers that offer a tandem-rated Campy compatible cassette body option. Phil Wood offered in Campy the past but dropped the option a few years back due to low demand.

What most folks who go the Campy route have done is to stick with 9 speed as previously discussed, i.e., using stock Shimano hubs and cassettes. However, for those folks who have opted to go with pure Campy 9 or Campy 10 spacing, most have gone with White Industries or stuck with a Shimano compatible tandem hub and dropped the coin for a Wheels Manufacturing cassette: https://www.wheelsmfg.com/products.ph...od=shiftconv10 Even though the largest cassette they list are the 11x27t models, I'm pretty sure they can custom make something like an 11x32.

Now, relative to finding what you're looking for on the Web, welcome to the world of the one-off /custom requirement. In most cases, you'll need to contact the various manufacturers directly to see if they can offer what it is you're looking for. Etailers, even many of the tandem specialty dealers, will not always have the inside track on what a manufacturer can offer. Of course, one-off stuff isn't necessarily inexpensive either.

Your best-bet on getting a good deal on something like the White Industries or DT-Hugi hubs would probably be to work through your dealer and Co-Motion to see what type of pricing they could offer you. You could also check with my friend Alex at www.mtbtandems.com (Email: Alex@mtbtandems.com). Alex specializes in off-road tandems, but he is a White Industries dealer and he may also have a vendor for DT-Hugi. Note: Not sure how fast Alex will turn around any Emails or phone calls right now. His real job -- the one that pays the mortgage -- is in the insurance industry and his pretty busy in Florida these days. However, it would be worth your while to check with him on pricing as he uses an excellent wheel builder.

ottodog

Interesting product. Funny they're about 5 miles from my house. I guess price wise it's about the same as a Campy Centaur cassette. Bummer about the Chris King incompatibility. I notice Chris King has a blurb about it on their website . Interesting that they're asking for feddback from people that have tried it. I wonder if you'd have the same problem with their tandem specific hubs?
It looks as though American Classic also make a conversion cassette. They are showing the largest of 12-25 though. Price is better, and it doesn't say anything about a Chris King problem.

Well thanks for the info as always,

Chris