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Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

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Old 05-07-10, 05:59 PM   #1
WheresWaldo
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Competed in our first TT 05.05.10 and ...

... we finished dead last! In the tandem category that is.

It was fun and we got to talk to other area tandem owners. Mind you tandems are a minuscule part of the TT, with most of the faster riders on Cervelo P3's a couple of P4's some Cannondale Slice's as well as a couple of Specialized Transition's. Will try to post a picture later.

Now for the excuses:
  1. We didn't really train enough
    1. I had 220 miles this season up to that point
    2. Bittersweet has about 100 miles
  2. It was windy, 6mph headwind down the front straight
  3. It was uphill into turn 1
  4. It was unseasonably warm

The good news:
  1. We had a blast
  2. We met some nice people
  3. We had very consistent lap times
  4. We left ample room for improvement

Can't wait for next month!
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Old 05-07-10, 06:05 PM   #2
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Congrats!
Have done a few TTs years back on our tandems. Fun!
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Old 05-07-10, 06:22 PM   #3
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Good job. DFL>DNF>DNS
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Old 05-07-10, 09:01 PM   #4
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Old 05-08-10, 07:53 AM   #5
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Good job. DFL>DNF>DNS
Roger that. I used to tell my boys, "In order to finish first, you first have to finish".

Good job Waldo and Bittersweet!

P.S. - I ALWAYS used to sandbag on my first TT of the season! Made it easy to improve and added early season incentive!
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Old 05-08-10, 09:53 AM   #6
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We have found on our bikes that aero clipons are good for about 1mph speed increase in the 22-24mph range for the same power input to the bike and 1.5-2 mph faster at 28-32mph
at least that is how much we slow down when the pilot shifts from aero to hands on the brifters position. Depends on your speed capabilities, might not help much on a track where
speed is fairly constant and the ability of the captain to breathe adequately in the aero position can be a factor.
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Old 05-08-10, 10:50 AM   #7
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Arms are cylinders and cylinders are very high resistance forms. We do OK with captain's forearms parallel to ground, elbows in, stoker's elbows in and helmet resting gently on captain's back. Until our arms give out, anyway. We've experimented with stoker cowhorn bar positioning and she can now rest her wrists on it for quite a while. Practice has helped as has pushups. We find stoker position makes a big difference. Anything she can do to keep the wind off her chest.

I use aerobars on my single, but don't want to on the tandem, at least not yet. Our local TTs often have a Classic category where you can't have aerobars, aero wheels, etc.

Good for you for getting out there! We might try one next year. We're still a little embarrassed, but we'll get over it. Getting faster is good medicine.

How long a TT?
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Old 05-08-10, 11:19 AM   #8
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Dr Gabe Mirkin uses an interesting setup for his wife Diane. It's a wide mountain bike bar with aero bars mounted on the ends. That puts her hands, (and aero bars), just slightly outboard of his hips, and he doesn't seem to have any problem mounting with this setup. I assume it's more for her comfort than anything else, but I'm willing to bet that it's more aero as well.

Pics are on the Panthers Tandem Club members page, then scroll down to the Mirkins.

There are also some pics of them riding this setup in the "Ride Pics" category.
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Old 05-08-10, 11:26 AM   #9
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The official word is 10 miles, but it actually works out to 9.9 miles. It is seven laps around Charlotte Motor Speedway and you start and finish on pit road with all other laps completely around the track. It is a 1.5 mile tri-oval.

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Old 05-08-10, 01:00 PM   #10
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9.9 miles... how long did it take you?
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Old 05-08-10, 03:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sch View Post
We have found on our bikes that aero clipons are good for about 1mph speed increase in the 22-24mph range for the same power input to the bike and 1.5-2 mph faster at 28-32mph
at least that is how much we slow down when the pilot shifts from aero to hands on the brifters position. Depends on your speed capabilities, might not help much on a track where
speed is fairly constant and the ability of the captain to breathe adequately in the aero position can be a factor.
I'd agree that the aerobars are worth around 1mph, perhaps slightly less if you have areally good position already in the drops.

Getting the stoker in a really good aero position appears to be about 1/2mph. With the Cane creek speed bars, my stoker has helmet about a centimeter from my back, and virtually flat. This is a pic from last year. This year the aerobars are below the handlebars lowering my elbows about 2 inches, and Deb's bars are alsoa touch lower.



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Old 05-08-10, 03:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Dr Gabe Mirkin uses an interesting setup for his wife Diane. It's a wide mountain bike bar with aero bars mounted on the ends. That puts her hands, (and aero bars), just slightly outboard of his hips, and he doesn't seem to have any problem mounting with this setup. I assume it's more for her comfort than anything else, but I'm willing to bet that it's more aero as well.

Pics are on the Panthers Tandem Club members page, then scroll down to the Mirkins.

There are also some pics of them riding this setup in the "Ride Pics" category.
We played around with aerobars for the stoker, but never found a way to make them really aero.

The advantage of our setup is it aloows the stoker to get a flat back, eliminates aspace between stoker and captain. and allows the stoker to get narrow, with her arms drafting my back.

The advantage to the aerobars extending from the cowhorns is that it gives the stoker support for their upper body. But adding effectively 6-8" inches of frontal area would hurt aerodynamics.

I've seen tandem set up for very long races (RAAM like) but I think they were conceeding some aerodynamic loss for a position sustainable over hours and hours of riding.
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Old 05-08-10, 03:32 PM   #13
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Has anyone see a tandem set up with the stoker in the original position Graham Obree used for the hour record. The bars up high and narrow with your elbows back and chest virtually on your hands. Could work I think.
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Old 05-08-10, 03:32 PM   #14
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Ooooh, cool stoker bars, beautiful CoMo! Other thing, Waldo, is strip the bottles and cages. Yes, cages, too. Looks cool, if nothing else. Even though wind tunnel work says a downtube bottle is fine, I think I notice them on my single. Need them for 40k TTs, though some aero drinking scheme would be better.
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Old 05-08-10, 05:54 PM   #15
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We have some small Camelbacks that we plan on using in the future, Got to remember it is hot here in the summer, it's only May and at the start on Wednesday night is was near 90, water is a necessity even in a 10 mile TT.

We also have a set of clip on Aero bars but had not practiced with them so didn't want to take any chances.

Although the picture doesn't show it, stoker can get completely behind me and in her normal single bike aero tuck without any adjustments to bars or saddle. That was one of the reasons we built it like we did.
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Old 05-08-10, 05:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
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9.9 miles... how long did it take you?
Too long!

I already mentioned that we came in dead last in our group. We averaged 18.6 mph, just over 32 minutes, actual distance was 9.95 miles.
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Old 05-08-10, 06:23 PM   #17
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We also have a set of clip on Aero bars but had not practiced with them so didn't want to take any chances.
You do need to practice with them. Obivously so that you're comfortable controlling the bike. But almost as important you have to adapt to the position to be able to produce power in the position. Until you get used to it, you can be slower in the aero bars because of a significant drop in power.
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Old 05-08-10, 06:59 PM   #18
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Way to go. Your spirit is inspiring!
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Old 05-08-10, 07:06 PM   #19
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It may be primary season in your state. If so, the day it's over you can probably grab some Coroplast signs and make a rear disc. Keep a lookout for them. You'll have to cut a small wedge out of the circles to get them to lay down on the spokes. Zip tie the two sides together. I've never done that, but always wanted to! It's hard to find the right signs.

If it's hot, be sure to drink a pint of water or 6% sports drink, or better yet a tall coffee, about an hour before the start. And bring your singles and trainers for 1/2 hr. warmup or do it on the tandem. A 10k TT is very short and needs a good warmup. I like to pedal in Z2 for 20 minutes, then do a 1.5 minute power interval at high cadence, rest about 3 minutes, then do another one. Gotta time it so that you finish with enough time to get to the line in time for your start, and in my case, to pee also. In my rural area I can find somewhere to do a couple of hill sprints. That works too. Just gotta get the HR up to the max I'll see on the TT a couple of times.

On my single, I'll ride the aerobars continuously for about 20 minutes a couple times a week for a couple weeks before I use them in real life. I drop my torso down between my shoulders, and drop my head down too. Don't set them to pinch your elbows in too much unless you're used to that. You'll probably want to move your saddle forward a bit to open your hip angle and make it easier to breathe. That will also change your saddle height.

I use a HRM and kick it up to LT or so immediately to get the lactate flowing. Then I just hold it right there until I'm a little further from the line that I think is appropriate, and then I go, still staying aero.

Go get 'em.
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Old 05-08-10, 10:20 PM   #20
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I already have a TT bike that I ride on occassion, pictured here:



I am used to riding in an aero position, just not used to it on our tandem. It is much more squirrelly on the tandem than the single. I also have a disk wheel than I will use at some time, just not yet, one thing at a time.
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Old 05-09-10, 08:53 AM   #21
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Is it a wheel cover on the back or a disc wheel? and how does the trispoke feel in the front? I heard it is not really stiff, just wondering what would be the best front wheel for TT tandem, Zipp 808 clydsdale, hed3 or something else.

Thanks

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I'd agree that the aerobars are worth around 1mph, perhaps slightly less if you have areally good position already in the drops.

Getting the stoker in a really good aero position appears to be about 1/2mph. With the Cane creek speed bars, my stoker has helmet about a centimeter from my back, and virtually flat. This is a pic from last year. This year the aerobars are below the handlebars lowering my elbows about 2 inches, and Deb's bars are alsoa touch lower.



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Old 05-09-10, 10:34 AM   #22
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It's a wheel cover in the back. It doesn't really want to lay flat on a 145mm hub wheel. With some cutting and taping I got it to work. I wouldn't really reccomend it, unless you can find one designed for a tandem wheel.

The HED 3 worked fine for a TT. We haven't ridden it in any other circumstances, so I really don't have a good impression of how it would handle in hard cornering on a tandem. Based on riding it on my regular TT bike though, it seems pretty stiff.

This year's state TT we used the 808's front and back. My bet was that the 808 in the back was faster than the cobbled together disc cover, given that an 808 is not a whole bunch slower than a true disc.

We used the 808 on the front as oppossed to the HED3 mostly for style points. If you believe the HED and Zipp claims, a regular (16 spoked) 808 and a HED3 are just about a dead heat, with one being faster in one wind condition and the other in another wind condition. Thus our 24 spoked 808 has to be a touch slower than the HED3. But I figured the difference, if any had to be tiny, and I felt a little more secure on the Zipp wheel, than using the HED3 in a non approved fashion.
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Old 05-09-10, 10:44 AM   #23
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I've use a HED3 on the road a fair amount and I'm not too fond of it. It's actually too stiff and transmits everything into the frame. This isn't a big deal on flat bumpy roads but if you are going fast through corners it upsets the chassis and makes carving corners less than inspiring. It also gets more squirrely at speed (50+mph) than my other wheels.
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Old 06-11-10, 04:13 PM   #24
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I thought I would resurrect this post with the new update

So, this past Wednesday evening we completed our second TT at Charlotte Motor Speedway and ...

We came in last!

There were some bad/good things on our second attempt, first the bad:
  1. It was a bit more humid
  2. The wind actually picked up after we started
  3. It was blowing in our faces from turn 3 all the way down the front straight
  4. We still haven't trained enough

Now the good stuff:
  1. We did not blow up on the first lap even though we were faster
  2. We reduced weight
    1. Taking two bottles
    2. Removing our spare tire and tools
  3. We were very consistent from lap to lap
  4. We left plenty of room for improvement
  5. We ran with our ContourHD Cam. I am working on the video.

All in all we had another great time and talked to the same nice people we met the first time out. We did make a major improvement, as I mentioned, we did not redline in the first lap and still managed it faster than our first outing and despite the wind on the uphill front straight we held our speed better.

May TT = 32:15.67
June TT = 29:50.18 (preliminary results)

2:25 improvement and an average speed increase from 18.6 to 20.1 mph
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Old 06-11-10, 04:31 PM   #25
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very cool and congrats! great picture too.

what's it like riding a bike on that track?

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