Brad Bedell

I'm building up an Edge Carbon wheelset. What options do I have for hubs?

I've spent some time on Google, looked at the wheel threads here. I've seen mention of White industries, but they don't have one listed. Special order? I would prefer a DT Swiss to match my front hub. Currently I'm waiting to hear back on them being able to assemble something for me.

Thanks in advance!
-Brad

Ritterview

The DT Swiss Tandem 540 has only choices of 36 and 40 holes, so you've contacted DT Swiss to see if they will make a 28 hole? White Industries makes tandem hubs of 32, 36, 40 and 48 hole. Chris King doesn't list their holes for their tandem hub on their website, so, burning with curiosity, I called them. The tandem hubs are theoretically available in 28, 32 and 36 holes, if anyone has any inventory. I asked when they would be making a new lot of tandem hubs, and he indicated that tandem hubs were waaaaaay down on the list of CK manufacturing priorities, their numbers being but a "handful" per year. This was the busiest time of the year for them (its good to know that a US manufacturer has plenty of business), and it would be a while before they considered making any tandem hubs.

So, it is possible that a 28 hole CK hub is someone's inventory. If not, you'll need to get DT, White or CK to drill a 28 hole hub. It would seem that would work best if you wheel builder was a valuable customer for one of these companies, and the company would be inclined to please the wheel builder, because you shouldn't expect that the hub makers care about individual tandem customers.

What about using a 32 or 36 hole hub, and leaving 4 or 8 holes empty? I asked the CK rep. This won't work, he explained. So, you'll need a 28 hole hub.

You might consider drilling extra holes in the Edges, as has been done with Zipps. That won't do, because Edge's famously have molded holes, and drilling ruins that advantage.

If you do fine a wheel builder with tandem experience, you will likely encounter profound skepticism about the wisdom of using carbon rims. Just as the coveted BB gun in A Christmas Story was bound to 'put your eye out', so too will you be counseled about the likelihood, nay, inevitability, of rim braking heat melting your carbon rims.

You'll protest,"But we are a light team", and the builder will reply "That's what they all say". You'll counter "But I'll use a rear disc", and the builder will reply "Then you'll melt your front rim". You'll explain "But Homeyba used Zipps with two big guys on the RAAM", and the builder will reply "Those Zipps have aluminum braking surfaces". And so on.

This is how it went when I discussed Edge rims with Rich at Wheelbuilder, and Jason at Fairwheel. Rich especially. So, I've been extremely careful about keeping my front wheel exposed to too much braking. I use my rear disc, and if the descent is too much for the disc, I'll just stop to let it cool rather than risk my front rim. If I melted my front rim I couldn't stand the "I told ya so's". Eventually, I'll have to get an aluminum rim front wheel for those rides with big, tricky descents, so as to eliminate this possibility.

I am very happy with my choice of Edge rims thus far. I didn't have the problem with hubs, because my frame has 135 OLD, and I could use readily available mountain hubs. What with the deep rims and the DT Comp spokes, I feel the wheel is plenty stiff. It is as light the light aluminum tandem wheels, and more aero. I haven't ridden it long enough to determine if it will prove more rugged and reliable than, say, Rolf's, but I think it will.

Brad Bedell

I appreciate the reply and the research. Your King nugget was very helpful. I really feel I looked everywhere for a hub before I even hinted approaching the topic of carbon wheels on a tandem. I've read everyone's caveats about this over the past 3 years.

On my 1/2 bike, I love my Reynolds DV46UL and SDV66. I drop off of 6-12" drops with it on a regular basis; so far I've not even busted a spoke in 10k miles. (with water,tool bag and such I'm at 195#) So far, I've experienced my Reynolds carbon rims are stronger than ANY aluminum rim I've ever owned. I've even seen them out last frames in a crash where the wheel took the first 'hit'. I do check tension and balance spokes if needed every 2-3k miles (when I replace the tire). I've only had to make adjustments once on these wheels.

As for hills... Fortunately, I live in Dallas TX. We have a few hills, but nothing that generally require brakes for any substantial amount of time. I do have disc tabs on the tandem and will build up a disc hub for when I do bother to travel and need longer descents. Or, as you said one could just swap to an aluminum front wheel. The once or twice a year that we feel we'd have to tote the tandem across country in lieu of our 1/2 bikes.

Heat and spokes are the two areas I feel are 'weak' in a tandem application. I did consider drilling wheels, if I did I would start with a Reynolds SDV66 16 spoke rim as it was designed with drilling in mind.(either have Reynolds or do it locally) The drilling and math would be 'easy', but time consuming to get it right. Instead, I went with what I perceive as a stronger rim on a 28h pattern.

I doubt DT will 'build' something for me, rather than I'm going to have to do it myself. My LBS guy swore he had them build one, so I asked him to order me one.

My biggest fear is that I'll have to machine a totally custom axle. Although, I should be able to start with one and only make minor adjustments to an existing part. I'll have my final answer tonight about this when I take my 440 hub apart and put the caliper on it. *edit*440 hub bearing spacing is wider, but 142 conversion axle is the key here** Currently, when I headed for the office this morning, I had my 240s, 240 135mm and 540 hub in pieces taking measurements. I forgot I had the 440 hub waiting for the custom frame to be finished.

My "plan" is to start with a DT 240S 28h 135mm disc hub. Since it is a MTN hub, the flanges are nearly as thick as the tandem hub. They are actually 4-5mm wider than the tandem flanges (based on memory of this morning's measurements) Which may cause some spoke angle considerations. Goal is 3x lacing, but may modify that to keep angles playing nice.

**Edit** The 142mm conversion axle shares the same axles as the 240 hub; roughly 115 width and the rest is made up with end caps... SO this following part won't work:
I think this is the magic part: https://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Acce...m-TA-rear.aspx Assuming the bearing to bearing spacing is the 'same', it's a matter of cutting off the ends of the axles and putting the 240s end caps back on. Since it's a conversion 'kit' for a 240 hub I'm pretty confident that the bearing spacing assumption is solid.
*edit* 440/240 bearings/axles/end caps work. SO it's a matter of cutting down the 142mm axle. I may get lucky with the right assortment of caps, but I'm not going to hold my breath. **

I'll order the 150mm axle, which I know is wider and cut it down and machine it.

I expect the bearings to be reliable as they are 15x28x7mm in the 240 hub. The Tandem 540 hub bearings are 10x26x8mm The larger axle *should* spread the load over the bearings well enough to not notice the difference in width.

IF that proves to be reliable, I'm golden. If not, DT does make a steel axle that I can machine down, potentially find a 1mm wider bearing and make necessary machining changes. Or, I can wimp out and get on the waiting list for the 28 hole King hub.

Other tidbits: I will be running a 9mm through axle on the front to keep steering geometry in line. If you've not tried this, it's been a huge help on my off-road rig. I have considered modifying the frame with a 12mm through axle on the rear in the event the other madness above doesn't work out. Either way, I will document the progress and outcome.

Of course, I'm all ears to the engineering types who think this axle work is a bad idea.... per the bike shop guy, Dt-Swiss tech mumbled something along the lines of what I am doing but said that it was a one time deal and they won't do it again.

rmac

White Industries may be willing to do a 28 hole hub for you. I wanted a disk moved over a bit on a hub and they machined it for me at no charge. Give them a call.

Ritterview

Here's a pic of a Cannondale from the Edge Facebook, with Edge rims, 28 spokes, and 145 mm hubs. From the pic, however, it is difficult to discern what the hubs are.


This tandem was used on a cross-continental trip on the PAC Tour, interestingly, it started the tour with the Edges, but during the Tour wheels were switched out, and it ends up with conventional wheels. It would be interesting to hear the story.



___________________________________________________________more info.....



Here's a more detailed pic from the blog the riders kept:



Also, an explanation for the switch in the rear wheel:

Brad Bedell

I agree, I'd like to hear the story. Good news is that I'll have my own story beginning by the end of the month. Hopefully it's not just an expensive education in my journey to being an experienced wheel builder.


Another rim I didn't consider was HED Jet, they may have a 32 available. They would be aero only and not a weight savings. Their aluminum part of the rim is a velocity aerohead *I think*


*edit*

Read the explanation. Good to know. Avoid *heat* I know dragging the brakes really heats them up. Learning and teaching people to be decisive with brakes and only use them when necessary was a very difficult task in automotive racing. I'll make sure I retain the ability to put a disc brake with fresh pads on the bike for future descents.

uspspro

Brad,

Are you the same Brad Bedell of MR2 fame?

Just curious.

Brad Bedell

Guilty as charged.

uspspro

I suppose there is a strong correlation between swapping V6s into MR2s and riding go-fast tandem bikes!

uspspro

I was thinking about the same topic as the OP recently.

I would love to build rear wheel with a 28h Edge 68mm rim with the avid disc, and run my regular 30mm aluminum wheel in the front.... Just need the hub, whch is not available.

I thought about Ritterview, but figured he was running narrower hub spacing.

I think the best answer is to ask White Industries to make one, as suggested earlier.

Dean V

I would have a look at mountain bike hubs, especially if you want a disc brake. Depending on how they are constructed you should be able to find one that will take a 145mm axle and an extra spacer to make it fit with minimal custom engineering. I made my Mavic Cosmic Elite into 145mm spacing by making a new axle and redishing the wheel. It was a bit of work, but not too bad. There are also the Downhill MTB hubs that are 150mm spacing. If you look at those you also might find one that can made 5mm narrower easily.

blamp28

from the Phil Wood Web Site "Standard spoke hole counts are 36, 40, and 48 (other spoke hole count options are availabe upon inquiry)."

https://www.philwood.com/products/hubs/tandem-hubs/

Ritterview

The Edge rim adorned Cannondale depicted above has 145 mm spacing, and its builder found a hub. Maybe someone can get an I.D. on this.



Original pics here and here.

TandemGeek

[QUOTE=Ritterview;10915499]The Edge rim adorned Cannondale depicted above has 145 mm spacing[/QUOTE

Hmmm.. Probably not.

That looks to be an older Cannondale RT2000 and Cannondale's Road tandems didn't adopt 145mm rear spacing until 1999 . With the exception of their 1993 road tandems that used 135mm rear spacing, all of the pre-1999 Cannondale road tandems used 140mm rear-spaced hubs.

Ritterview

I emailed Jim, the owner of the Cannondale, and he kindly responded.

Jim--

At the BF Tandem Forum, the discussion has turned to Edge rims for tandems.

By doing some Googling, I came across the blog detailing your exploits on PAC, with the Edge-rim equipped Cannondale.

Congrats on your PAC tour, by the way.

I've got questions from this thread that only you can answer!

The OP is asking what 145 hubs have 28 holes. What hub was used on yours? Did it have to be special ordered? Who built the wheels?

We use Phil Wood hubs disc compatible, and EDGE Built them. Received directly from EDGE.

The fate of the front Edge rim is a mystery. The rear rim melted we know, but the front Edge was replaced first. What happened to that?

The front was a fluke. On our 2nd day we started at 3am in the desert to beat the heat and also because the day was 230 miles. 10 miles into the ride we hit a big pot hole which bent the front rim just slightly. With 5 miles to go for the day we flatted the front (sidewall issue) and when I changed the tube I noticed the rim was bent. Still functional just chose to go to my standard front wheel at that point.

What did you think of the Edge wheels in comparison to the conventional wheels that succeeded them?

I liked the EDGE wheels alot. My standard wheels are 8 year old wide Velocity rims 42 or 48 spoke with DT Swiss/Hugi Hubs (also disc compatible) On a couple of early big climbing days I noticed a real difference climbing, we were probably 4-5% faster on 5-6 mile climbs with grades of 5-7%. The front did take noticeably more wind at speed so on big descending days if wind was anticipated I would probably choose a standard. One problem with the comparison was that I usually ride 32 mm Conti Top Touring or Touring Plus tires on my standard rims. I chose to try 28mm Conti Top Contact tires for this ride which I did not care for at all (after I wore out my front and rear Conti Touring Plus's I rode the 28mm Conti Top Contact tires on my standard rims and didn't like them. The required much higher air pressure and were much less stable cornerning.) When I use the EDGE wheels again I will try 28mm and 32mm Conti Touring Plus tires on them.

My big disadvantage is that I don't ride the tandem very much so really had to do all the experimenting on the trip. (But hey, I figured I had 130 hours of riding to experiment, right!?)

Were the 28 spokes sufficient for stiffness?

Yes. No break rub standing. Comfortable descending.

Did any spokes break? Would you have used the Edge wheels again on this trip if you had had a rear disc to avoid rim melting?

Absolutely. With a standard backup again. We bend the rear wheel on day 8 or so when we had a soft rear tire and hit a big and were able to fix it with virtually no discernible brake pulsing for rest of the trip.

Did the Edge wheels smooth out the Cannondale road buzz better than the aluminum wheels?

Hard to say, I had to pump the Top Contact tires up to 100-110 and usually ride the Top Touring at 80-90.

I was going to get a Seven (with discs) for this trip, anticipating doing Paris-Brest-Paris next year, but have decided that next year needs to be more family time - I've got 2 kids starting college. So only chose to play with the EDGE wheels at this time. I ride 65 EDGE wheels in crits and 45mm EDGE wheels in climbing races and they are the bees knees.

Appreciate your interest!

Jim




I followed up:


Jim--

Wow, thanks for your prompt reply!

I had assumed that the Cannondale had 145 mm spacing, but Tandem Geek on the forum suggests that they may be 135 or 140 mm. Do you know the hub width? Did you have to special order the hubs from Phil Woods to have 28 holes (which are listed as having 32, 36, 40 holes, etc.)?

The Cannondale is 135 or 140 not 145. It's sitting in VA so I can't measure!

EDGE got the hubs and built the wheels so I can't comment on the Phil hubs.


So, you bent the front Edge rim? I'd thought that carbon would crack, but not bend.

Yeah you can dent or crack carbon!

--Jim

Brad Bedell

Ritterview, Thanks for the research! This is encouraging.

For now, I've decided to give my hybrid DT Swiss 240 hub a try; as I have a spare MTB 240 hub laying around and the conversion axle is around 100.00; it should be here in a week or so. However, knowing we have other options is a good thing if the 240 hub proves to not be up to the tasks.

merlinextraligh

our Zipps are 28 spoke, and laced to White Industry hubs with 145 mm spacing

Homeyba

I can verify that. I dented and cracked my Zipp 404's a couple weeks ago. Descending a hill, we hit a pot hole at 45-50mph. Didn't break a spoke though. Just got my replacement from Zipp today.

Ritterview

As you've discussed previously:

The problem in finding a 28 hole 145 mm hub appears better now than at the start of the thread:

• DT Swiss: The least holes they list on their web page is 32. The OP has inquired to see if DT will drill a 540 hub for 28.
• CK: Lists a 28, but availability uncertain.
• Phil Wood: Edge used a Phil Wood 28 spoke 140 mm hub to make a wheel for Jim's Cannondale, and reputedly routinely makes special orders.
• White Industries: Merlinextraligh got a 28 hole hub in 145 mm from Precision Tandems.

uspspro

Nice!

Thanks for making it harder to resist getting an Edge rear wheel!

Brad Bedell

After a little lathe work, I made a DT 440 150mm axle work on a 135mm 240s hub. The worst part was that I realized I didn't have an end cap for the left side that was long enough. I ended up cutting down and end cap and making it work as a spacer. But there doesn't appear to be any off the shelf 'fix' to make this work. Plan on at least an hour of lathe time if you want a DT 240 hub to work. I'll update/post up any reliability issues I have in the future, but I really don't expect any.



Axle photo: I'll add a 'stock' DT 440 axle picture at some point:

uspspro

Nice! Bike is looking good.

mkane77g

record 11!

Ritterview

If you are referring to the pic of the RD above, that is Super Record.

Brad Bedell

Yup, super record.

Here are the 3 axles side by side. The middle one is 'junk' as it was my refresher on how to operate a lathe... I kept it for this picture. I may set up the light box, but a quick snapshot is adequate.

Left is stock dt240 axle. Middle is my custom one, right is the dt440 150mm x 12 axle